Unibrace group buy

[rich83]

Flash. I have called snake oil on these things before. Waste of money if you ask me. Perfectly suitable for the "must have all the mods" owners tho.

What makes you come to that conclusion? Have you got one/driven a car with and without one back to back? A few years ago AKS Alex mentioned he was considering producing something similar which tells me there must be something in it.

If he thought there was money in it why wouldn't he? ;-)

I asked someone to do a simple experiment whilst fitting the UB. It fell of deaf ears. No one wanted to do it. CBA explaining but if you search the old threads it's all there.

[flashp]

Flash. I have called snake oil on these things before. Waste of money if you ask me. Perfectly suitable for the "must have all the mods" owners tho.

I can see how the Mk4 might benefit from 'something' extra to stiffen it up, as I mentioned earlier.

Sometimes things become supplied to a market where there's a demand rather than a need. Not saying that's the case with these, but scepticism is usually best!

I've suggested to the OP that this may not give what's required whilst trying to be respectful of his preference for modifying.

I've read the testimonials page on that site and I notice that the majority are from VW Vortex without specific vehicle details. There's a handful of Mk6's reviewed and Mk5's.
I'll be genuinely interested to hear honest opinions, but I may not rush out and buy some of these things! 

On balance, very rarely (if ever) have I read a review of a product where it's admitted that the reviewer has wasted a boat load of money for no gain. Surely this means that every modification ever done is a rapturous success!?

[rich83]

I lost interest when I read on their website... "Stiffer is always better!"

[flashp]

I'm sure that some chassis compliance is a good thing, certainly hasn't hurt the new mx5 for example.

[flashp]

I lost interest when I read on their website... "Stiffer is always better!"

Phnar phnar

[sub39h]

Flash. I have called snake oil on these things before. Waste of money if you ask me. Perfectly suitable for the "must have all the mods" owners tho.

What makes you come to that conclusion? Have you got one/driven a car with and without one back to back? A few years ago AKS Alex mentioned he was considering producing something similar which tells me there must be something in it.

If he thought there was money in it why wouldn't he? ;-)

I asked someone to do a simple experiment whilst fitting the UB. It fell of deaf ears. No one wanted to do it. CBA explaining but if you search the old threads it's all there.

Alex usually makes or endorses products because he uses it on his own car. Aside from that I trust him!

In regards to the experiment you mention I've found some reference to you being sceptical about the underbody bracing and tbh I am too. I'm mainly interested in the XB.

Flash. I have called snake oil on these things before. Waste of money if you ask me. Perfectly suitable for the "must have all the mods" owners tho.

I can see how the Mk4 might benefit...

On balance, very rarely (if ever) have I read a review of a product where it's admitted that the reviewer has wasted a boat load of money for no gain. Surely this means that every modification ever done is a rapturous success!?

The same thing that makes it of benefit in the Mk4 surely makes it of benefit in the Mk5? A hatchback design has a large gaping hole in it. Putting some sort of bracing there WILL stiffen the car. It may not be important or noticeable, but the only way to test that is to test two identical chassis to destruction both with the Unibrace fitted and without.

When it comes to reviews, I think if you were to waste a bucket of money on something you would just keep quiet about it. If you like a product you'll take the time and effort to endorse it. There are plenty of positive reviews out there from PQ35 chassis car owners which seem to say the car has noticeable benefits and the sorts of benefits that I'm looking for. That is enough for me to want to try it.

I understand you feel differently and that is absolutely fine but you've not really said anything to convince me your opinion is more correct. "I don't see the point." is a perfectly valid way to feel, but there are plenty of people who have actually tried it and like it. With the greatest respect I'd take their opinion more seriously.

[rich83]

Usually once people have paid money for something, there is a placebo.

I am happy for someone to buy one and do my test and prove me wrong and i will shut up about it. Until then it remains a waste of money for me.

[flashp]

The benefits to both are somewhat different. The mk4 was and is proven to be a much less rigid chassis than the mk5. The mk5 was after all the GTI's great comeback, as I'm sure we all know! 
This device was initially developed with the mk4 in mind to resolve an inherent problem and it may be fair to assume it met the designers specification and requirement since development and manufacturing will have cost money and it had a successful market launch.

The debate here is the effectiveness of the porting across to other platforms and the separation of this from marketings base principal - supply and demand.

Destructive testing would prove ultimately which is stiffer but this is fails to test the car as a new quantity. You would simply be checking to see that an effect is present, not how it has affected the dynamics of a complete car. Therefore testing of this type is pointless. Far better to put the car in the hands of a skilled test driver who is capable of technical analysis in the right environment.

Quote: 'When it comes to reviews, I think if you were to waste a bucket of money on something you would just keep quiet about it.' - This is exactly my point, and were it not the case then the value of honest revues and forums would increase x10 fold.

I'll be happy to be enlightened with an honest revue, if of course everybody who has one doesn't keep quiet 

I do trackdays at Goodwood fairly often, if I offered you a session as a passenger I'm fairly sure you'd step out of the car convinced it was absolutely fine, thank you very much. For me I would want to see before and after lap times and comments on feedback and handling from a pro driver.

My point is feeling a difference might not amount to making a positive difference. They're not mutually exclusive.

The mk5 is a stiff chassis to start with with softer more customer friendly wider market appropriate peripherals bolted on to it, so consequently it responds well to some changes. The mk4 however was a soft car by design and so has much more fundamental chassis issues to overcome.

[sub39h]

Your point was that people must give things positive reviews because they spent money on them. I said that's not likely to be the case - if you wasted money you'd probably keep shtum about it. You then agreed with me and said that's what you said

We'll have to agree to disagree. Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion, but in the same way I wouldn't take your advice on a restaurant you've never been to I'm not going to take much heed of a modification you've no experience of. It's all well and good saying you have been to other restaurants (or have other modifications you're happy with in this case) and I'd gladly listen to your opinion of those. It's not really relevant to the discussion however.

The best information we have is from people who actually have the mod and intuition says it should have an effect. The effect be negligible or not good value for money but those are also entirely separate arguments and difficult to quantify. Even lap times have too many factors to really answer the question objectively.

Anyhow after that flaming if there is any further interest in this GB I'd be appreciative if people could get in touch.

[flashp]

Your point was that people must give things positive reviews because they spent money on them. I said that's not likely to be the case - if you wasted money you'd probably keep shtum about it. You then agreed with me and said that's what you said

We'll have to agree to disagree. Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion, but in the same way I wouldn't take your advice on a restaurant you've never been to I'm not going to take much heed of a modification you've no experience of. It's all well and good saying you have been to other restaurants (or have other modifications you're happy with in this case) and I'd gladly listen to your opinion of those. It's not really relevant to the discussion however.

The best information we have is from people who actually have the mod and intuition says it should have an effect. The effect be negligible or not good value for money but those are also entirely separate arguments and difficult to quantify. Even lap times have too many factors to really answer the question objectively.

Anyhow after that flaming if there is any further interest in this GB I'd be appreciative if people could get in touch.

I did agree with you. Most people won't admit wasting money but I suggested it would be useful that if they did they should speak up to prevent others wasting money. This is what I actually said 'On balance, very rarely (if ever) have I read a review of a product where it's admitted that the reviewer has wasted a boat load of money for no gain.' I still haven't said these are ineffective and have even suggested that they may have met the designers expectation when applied to the mk4.

I might concede that under some circumstance a front strut brace made from steel can be effective.

You're right, I have no experience of this modification but I have said I'll be happy to be enlightened.

I'm not flaming you and I haven't told you that you'll be wasting your money. 

[sub39h]

Alright guys I've managed to get permission to post this group buy over on the VAGOC UK forum as well so think we should get the numbers. I've asked Rich for permission to set up a thread in the GB section of the forum. I'll post in there as soon as permission has been received.

Thanks