Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test

[GAMO]

 

[Llew]

From what I know about cleaning metals using a hydrogen furnace i wouldn't bet against it -it might just work I'm looking forward to the results

[rdfcpete]

Any after results? Keen to see what it brought to the table 

I've seen plenty of "terraclean thumbs up" style threads and very little to no-one saying it was a waste of money, or, that they retrieved no benefit from it. I know this particular process is slightly different to terraclean too.

I'm fairly sure if I get a 6 cylinder diesel next I'll get this done soon after purchasing.

A before and after mini write up would be great - a before/after dyno graph with 'bum dyno' and economy feedback is even better - ?

[Washout]

For all you naysayers and snake oil enthusiasts, it better than a kick in the nick nacks. Obviously a proper job is best but I for one am very interested in these results. I'm happy to do dyno runs before and after as well just waiting on the the outcome of this.

There's to many pessimists on this site at times. We don't all have engineering degrees or doctorates in the inner workings of fuel stratified engines, and forgive me but there does seem a tendency to Lord it over the layman or anyone with an independent thought ( unless a scene queen big cat). But what we the masses have is hope we have hope and that is something we must cling to. 

[xjay1337]

You say pessimists, I prefer the term realists. 

How are you going to conduct the dyno run? are you going to have it done in the morning and then have the work done at the dyno place and then it dyno'd afterwards?
Because if you go back another day with different humidity this can effect the BHP by 2 or 3% easily swaying the figures.
That even being said I did 2 runs back to back in my car, one did 355ft lb and the other did 380ft lb..... free torque gains just by dynoing it again!

[Washout]

That even being said I did 2 runs back to back in my car, one did 355ft lb and the other did 380ft lb..... free torque gains just by dynoing it again!

You see positive thinking thats what we like 

As for the dyno runs im going to conduct them in a hermatically sealed vessel free from outside interactions. 

It would be as you know a rough guide. In theory if you conducted enough dynos this would allow for any statistcal variation caused by outside factors so you would be able to say with some confidence it would never be 100 % though.

[flashp]

It would be as you know a rough guide. In theory if you conducted enough dynos this would allow for any statistcal variation caused by outside factors so you would be able to say with some confidence it would never be 100 % though.

It wouldn't actually work like this. What it would do is provide you with more data points for your analysis which would give you greater resolution on the same variation. When the causes of your variation are constantly moving and are random you cant isolate and remove them as you cant turn them into a constant value. You'll have a more detailed average though.

This also indicates that a good emissions test with as many parameters as possible measured may be the best method to examine the benefits and changes through cleaning.

[Washout]

It wouldn't actually work like this. What it would do is provide you with more data points for your analysis which would give you greater resolution on the same variation. When the causes of your variation are constantly moving and are random you cant isolate and remove them as you cant turn them into a constant value. You'll have a more detailed average though.

Makes sense and I agree. As you know using an average is a very basic statistical test. Could you not use a correction value to account for the different variables or a specific test which allows/factors in the variables. just a guess with my limited knowledge of statistics.

This also indicates that a good emissions test with as many parameters as possible measured may be the best method to examine the benefits and changes through cleaning.

I also agree with this I think it's a good idea but would it not be open to effects from the same variables biasing the dyno results.

[flashp]

It wouldn't actually work like this. What it would do is provide you with more data points for your analysis which would give you greater resolution on the same variation. When the causes of your variation are constantly moving and are random you cant isolate and remove them as you cant turn them into a constant value. You'll have a more detailed average though.

Makes sense and I agree. As you know using an average is a very basic statistical test. Could you not use a correction value to account for the different variables or a specific test which allows/factors in the variables. just a guess with my limited knowledge of statistics.

This also indicates that a good emissions test with as many parameters as possible measured may be the best method to examine the benefits and changes through cleaning.

I also agree with this I think it's a good idea but would it not be open to effects from the same variables biasing the dyno results.

The problem lies in defining a correction value. To do this you'd need to determine what the offset is and to do this you'd have to know precisely how external factors influence your results. When you know their behaviour and effect you can devise a formula to apply to your results. You'd have to do this for each and every external influence. It'd be complex, more so than is practical.

I'm not an expert on Dyno testing but I've had enough conversations with Jim at JKM about this to have a broad appreciation of all the factors that can affect results.

I do have some experience of data analysis, Gauge studies and capability studies with my job which can involve quantifying performance of test equipment, analysis and correction.

For an emissions test I feel you're correct in pointing out that there are still variables at play but they are fewer and more predictable so therefore easier to determine and factor out.

Much more than this then I think you'd need a lab! 

One factor which is really important is to use a Dyno operator where you know calibration and maintenance are performed regularly. JKM's for instance are known as 'heartbreakers' and they are correctly maintained and supported by the manufacturer. They are also repeatable (can measure the same parameter more than once with the same result in the same session) and reproducible (can measure a full set of parameters under different environmental conditions at a different time with the same results). A well set up and maintained Dyno can deal with many of the issues concerned with environmental influences such as temp, humidity, etc but the variable that can't be known is your vehicle. Tyres, clutch, dragging brakes, heat soak...the list goes on and on.

A good Dyno is great tool for monitoring what's going on in performance terms but intake cleaning can be very subtle in it's effect but still very beneficial even it doesn't yield 30bhp and 60 lb/feet of extra torque! 

[FJ1000]

Sorry for the radio silence guys, been a little tied up at home and at work.

So the dyno results...before the clean, the golf had peak power of 197bhp. After, wait for it....197bhp!!

I also compared MAF readings which were 175g/s before and 180g/s after, but the temperature was about 4 degrees cooler on the evening I did the after runs than when I logged the before runs.

The borescope images before and after look the same to my untrained eye.

The intake looked pretty coked up to me from the borescope so I was a little surprised that engine power was right on the money for what I'd consider a healthy output, so not really any power loss to recover. This is an 85k miles car, never carbon cleaned.

The RS4 was interesting... So first thing we discovered is that the engine is down on power, made just 352bhp on the pre clean dyno. Looks like the engine is retarding timing. So to my mind that throws a spanner in the works in terms of how reliable a test subject it is. The guys seemed to spend extra long cleaning it, as they were keen to register a gain. There was a lot of revving the engine involved too, not far off an "Italian tune." The first run after the clean, the rear roller was very slightly out of position and the car registered 330bhp. The look on the cleaning guys faces! They corrected the roller position, ran it again and it made 365bhp so a 13bhp increase, 3%. The airflow was also 3% better. Take those numbers with a pinch of salt though given the car is not healthy. Will be interesting to see what it makes once MRC tuning get it in a couple of weeks. One thing I have definitely noticed is that the acceleration of the RS is definitely smoother. No doubt about it. No change in how the golf drives however.

This week the company also cleaned and did dyno runs on an S5 (V8) at Surrey rolling road. Apparently the car stayed strapped onto the dyno for the clean, and registered a 20bhp recovery in performance. Seemingly quite a sizeable increase.

So I went to get some answers but still have questions! What I'm wondering now is if their process registers some dyno gains on the rs4 because a) they Rev the engine a lot as you would doing an Italian tune and/or b) their cleaning process, whilst doing nothing much in the intake (still don't understand how it would) actually does have some cleaning benefit in the combustion chamber and downstream.


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[Madone]

Interesting and slightly predictable results, but thanks for reporting back. What did the cleaner guys say when you looked via the bore scope and saw zero increase on the golf ?.

Them revving the ***** off the RS sounds like they were clutching at straws hoping the clean would loosen at best some carbon through moisture and reving the car would dislodge it. You may have got exactly the same results from just revving the engine like that without a clean !.

[Dan_FR]

Any pictures to share? Knew it wouldn't shift even the slightest bit of carbon. It won't - it's simple chemistry. Good on you either way for taking the time and spending the money to test, and even more so for posting honest results/feedback

As for the Audi, the problem with even unstrapping a car from the rollers between runs can have a huge impact on the next power run depending on how they strap it down, and a dyno operator will know very well how to manipulate this. It's a shame they didn't keep the Audi strapped down during the clean, but as you say an unhealthy test subject isn't a reliable result, issues could be intermittent etc.

[FJ1000]

I took some video so will upload that once I get a chance to get it edited!

Here's the dyno plot...



Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to hang around for the "after" dyno run on the Golf, had to get in the RS4 and head home due to another commitment at lunchtime on Saturday. I picked the golf up on monday evening and did the borescope then, so no chance to speak to EngineCarbonClean about it.

When the RS4 goes into MRC tuning to be looked at, they may take the intake off to have a look at the flaps. If so, will ask them to take some pics to see what the carbon buildup is like.

Regarding the revving of the RS4, I can see how an "italian tuneup" would have some marginal benefit to the engine. I can also believe that a bit more combustible gas (and therefore perhaps more heat) may help to clean crap out of the combustion chamber on back...but do nothing for the carbon in the intake. I think that's what I experienced on the RS4.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_tuneup

The S5 results they posted are interesting though, as the car did indeed stay strapped onto the dyno. +21bhp. Is that just the italian tune effect? 313bhp starting point suggests there may have been worse carbon build up than my RS4. Mine was cleaned (properly by AMD) 10-15k miles ago by the previous owner.

http://www.a5oc.com/forums/audi-a5-s5-tech/97929-ive-got-into-engine-3.html#post1083657

[xjay1337]

Snake oil.... as predicted...
Regarding the RS4s I've seen many running mid 300's and being that I can keep up (JUST) with all the ones I've raced on the move would give that some legitamacy.

Thanks for taking the time to check it out.

[th3_f15t]

My thoughts are that any Italian Tuning plus the cleaning substance may of helped clear the exhaust more than anything else, so the extra power comes from the engine being able to expel gases a bit better.