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Author Topic: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test  (Read 27097 times)

Offline Madone

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2015, 07:28:04 am »
No borescope available at the dyno facility unfortunately, and the carbon cleaning guy doesn't have one either.

I'm thinking about buying a cheap usb type borescope off amazon (could be hours of fun at home too!). Could someone talk me through how I'd feed it through to see the valves without messing anything up?


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Hmmm, if I was a cynic I would say, wonder why the carbon clean chap who's job is to remove carbon doesn't have a way to see how well it worked ;) ;).

I'm not sure what needs to be removed to see the valves. I know my mechanic did it without removing everything.


Offline Dan_FR

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 07:42:12 am »
Cheap USB one and go in through the IAT sensor hole in the inlet manifold

It will do nothing to remove the build-up. Waste of money. IF it WERE that good, they would have a borescope, they would show you before and after.... They don't... All they have are their claims without any proof to back them up
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Offline FJ1000

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 10:55:02 am »
Cheap USB one and go in through the IAT sensor hole in the inlet manifold

It will do nothing to remove the build-up. Waste of money. IF it WERE that good, they would have a borescope, they would show you before and after.... They don't... All they have are their claims without any proof to back them up

Cool, ordered a USB borescope

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B015Q1KXCW?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

Thanks for the tip on the intake air temp sensor, will give it a go!

There are some before/after borescope valve pics on their website, but I want to do my own tests.

As well as dyno and borescope, if I have time, going to try and get some before and after MAF readings too. Might not get time to do that but will try.


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Offline Dan_FR

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 11:24:41 am »
I only saw one picture on this page: http://www.enginecarbonclean.com/cleaning-engine-components.php

No way on earth was that done through this process. Please do post up your results though
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Offline th3_f15t

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 12:05:30 pm »
To all those that are saying it's a waste of time... It may well be! I'm just glad someone's taking the time to prove/disprove it properly.

Moving over to Flickr, sorry for the broken picture links!

Offline pudding

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2015, 12:19:09 pm »
I'm not sure a dyno would be accurate enough to measure any benefits either tbh.  There's usually a 3-5% error on most dynos, and if the benefits exceed that tiny percentage, I'd be surprised.  At the end of the day, the ECU will keep cramming boost in until the target is met, and a small build up of carbon won't block boost enough to reduce power.  Any benefits in cleaning them will be felt at the lower end of the rpm range.


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Offline flashp

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2015, 02:06:10 pm »
I think an emissions test would be more relevant tbh.
Not every worthwhile task can be measured in power gains.

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Offline Madone

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2015, 08:30:44 pm »
To all those that are saying it's a waste of time... It may well be! I'm just glad someone's taking the time to prove/disprove it properly.

I Agree, it's good of FJ to share this.

I also agree regarding the dyno being the wrong tool to measure the results. After the inlets were done on my car, it didn't feel any quicker,but did tick over much better and also start better and 'feel' more responsive and smoother. Well worth doing but it took the technician a few hours with various tools,  scrapers and a vacuum cleaner to suck out the carbon he dislodged. Makes you wonder if this thing does even remove a single fair size peice of carbon deposit, where does it go ?, it doesn't sound like it sucks it out ?, must just go through the engine ???, not sure I would want that !

Offline FJ1000

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Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2015, 07:33:33 am »
The main reason I'm doing this is because of the large power losses due to carbon buildup on the RS4. It's not unheard of to lose 30 or 40 bhp, maybe even more! The only sure fire way to recover that power is a proper manual clean. But I found it interesting that some RS owners had tried this service and thought it made a noticeable difference, so I'm checking it out. I'm including the golf out of interest really.

As well as the before and after dyno results, I'll also have MAF readings and some borescope images. I did some logging of air flow readings on the golf and got a few images inside the intake last night. I'm planning to do the same on the RS tonight.

Good idea on the emissions, I might ask the dyno facility if that's something we can measure too.


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« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 07:35:10 am by FJ1000 »


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Offline flashp

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2015, 08:17:44 am »
When I had mine done I noticed an improvement. So much so that I plan to treat it as service task that I'll have repeated when a borescope image indicates that it'd be worthwhile. Every 2 or 3 years may see something to clean off without letting it build up into a heavy crust.

I personally believe that these engines benefit from being 'driven' rather than crawling around at low rpm for too much of their life, 12 month servicing minimum (I do low mileage and some short journeys to work and home so I slip in an extra oil only change as this kind of use could be termed as 'arduous conditions' according to the hand book) , good quality fuel of 98RON minimum (as the sticker in the filler cap says) and the best engine oil such as an ester based one which has a 'clean' fully synthetic base rather than your regular synthetic oils. This is worth a read http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-synthetic-lubricants/

I do track days every now and then which helps to keep the lungs clear.  :driver:

Below is a direct quotation from the technical staff of VAG with complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.


"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits on components. Carbon deposits form especially in the neck region of intake valves. A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following result: Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components. These constituents are chiefly long-chain and branched-chain hydrocarbons, i.e., the low-volatility components of oil and fuel. Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil and fuel particles in turn become embedded. This process is a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases. Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation, and in this process, the blowby gasses and the recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve.

Especially in the area of the neck of the intake valves, excessive carbon deposits have extremely negative effects for the following reasons: In the case of Otto direct injectors, the successful ignition of the stratified charge depends to a great extent on the correct development of the internal cylinder flow, which ensures reliable transport of the injected fuel to the spark plug to guarantee reliable ignition at the spark plug. However, a coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may interfere so strongly with the tumble flow that ignition failures may occur there as a result. Under certain circumstances, however, ignition failures can lead to irreversible damage of a catalytic converter installed in the exhaust gas tract for purifying the exhaust gas. Furthermore, the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient cylinder filling, especially in the upper load and speed range of the internal combustion engine. In addition, the carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may prevent correct valve closing, which leads to compression losses and thus sporadic ignition failures. This in turn could irreversibly damage the catalytic converter. There is the potential for small particles to break away from the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve and get into the catalytic converter. These hot particles may then cause secondary reaction and corresponding local damage of the catalytic converter. For example, a hole may be burned in the structure of the catalytic converter.

Globular deposits are found especially on the valve stem downstream from a partition plate in the intake port. Due to the dripping of high-boiling hydrocarbons from the partition plate towards the valve neck or valve stem, globular carbon deposits eventually form there by the sequence of events explained above. These deposits on the valve stem can result in flow deficits due to undesired swirling and turbulent flow around the globular carbon deposits. This may persistently interfere with the formation of stable tumble flow from cycle to cycle.

A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible. "

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Offline Madone

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2015, 09:50:50 am »
The main reason I'm doing this is because of the large power losses due to carbon buildup on the RS4. It's not unheard of to lose 30 or 40 bhp, maybe even more! The only sure fire way to recover that power is a proper manual clean. But I found it interesting that some RS owners had tried this service and thought it made a noticeable difference, so I'm checking it out. I'm including the golf out of interest really.

As well as the before and after dyno results, I'll also have MAF readings and some borescope images. I did some logging of air flow readings on the golf and got a few images inside the intake last night. I'm planning to do the same on the RS tonight.

Good idea on the emissions, I might ask the dyno facility if that's something we can measure too.


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Very interested to see the results, esp the scope images. When is the clean booked for ?

Offline Dan_FR

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2015, 10:01:58 am »
I've no doubt it will help within the combustion chamber, the same way adding water vapour does, but passing a hydrogen gas over hardened deposits won't shift them without some form of aggressive chemical reaction. I looked up these 'Hydrogen cleaning' sellers and found this on one of the websites:

How HYDROGEN clean carbon deposit in the engine?
 
When hydrogen (H2) enters the compression chamber via intake manifold, without pressure, in petrol or diesel engine, temperature in engine causes that hydrogen molecules (H2) "tear up" the hydrogen protons (2H +). Active H + reacts with the carbon, deposits and the oxide precipitate substances in the engine. Carbon and sludge is chemically transforming into hydrocarbon (HC) in the gaseous state and throws it out of the engine through the exhaust system. After treatment, there is no need to change engine oil and filter.

The above is utter nonsense, but even if it werent, the extreme heat referred to is not present in the intake manifold or the back of the inlet valves

After a further look at the website: http://www.enginecarbonclean.com/technology.php seeing as you just add tap water, it's just a glorified form of electrolysis.
 
Hydrogen gas passing over carbon deposits will not shift them in any way, shape or form in normal atmospheric conditions which is what is present during this treatment

Spraying a very fine mist of water in to the inlet will have the same effect on cleaning the combustion chamber. An example of this would be a car with a failed headgasket where water has made it in to a cylinder... have you ever noticed how clean the piston is in this instance?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 10:22:51 am by Dan_FR »
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Offline pudding

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2015, 10:18:14 am »
and the best engine oil such as an ester based one which has a 'clean' fully synthetic base rather than your regular synthetic oils. This is worth a read http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-synthetic-lubricants/

Indeedy.  I heartily recommend this stuff - http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-68897-fuchs-titan-race-pro-s-5w-40-ester-fully-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx

Really good stuff and was formerly known as Silkolene.   I used it exclusively in my old VR6 turbo from 0 miles (forged piston / rod rebuild) to 65K miles.  Stripped it down (due to turbo letting go) and there was zero wear on any part and zero staining on the castings like you get with that Castrol sh*t.


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Offline pudding

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Re: Engine Carbon Clean - Rolling Road Test
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2015, 10:21:43 am »
The main reason I'm doing this is because of the large power losses due to carbon buildup on the RS4. It's not unheard of to lose 30 or 40 bhp, maybe even more! The only sure fire way to recover that power is a proper manual clean. But I found it interesting that some RS owners had tried this service and thought it made a noticeable difference, so I'm checking it out. I'm including the golf out of interest really.

As well as the before and after dyno results, I'll also have MAF readings and some borescope images. I did some logging of air flow readings on the golf and got a few images inside the intake last night. I'm planning to do the same on the RS tonight.

Good idea on the emissions, I might ask the dyno facility if that's something we can measure too.


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I can totally see that on the RS4.  Bunged up valves across 8 cylinders is going to have quite an impact, up to 10% losses as you've said.   Bunged up valves across 4 cylinders and a turbo, not so much of an impact but it's still worth doing if just to improve the idle and part throttle quality.  And they just look nasty caked in crap!


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Offline david25

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