Make a donation

Author Topic: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30  (Read 34815 times)

Offline pudding

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 690
  • Posts: 8354
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #75 on: May 04, 2016, 03:36:03 pm »
MK6 R intercooler fitted. 

I haven't done any data logging yet but my butt dyno is definitely feeling a gain in torque. The engine feels a lot stronger in boost and more responsive off boost, and generally smoother running too.  And this is with standard intake and exhaust.

I think it's down to a combination of things.  1) Losing the leak prone clip-in hoses, 2) losing 9 years of oil / crud build up inside the original cooler core and 3) the improved and freer flowing core of the MK6 part.  You can just feel it doesn't heat soak half as much and has much less pressure drop.

All in all, for <£250 it's a bargain for an OEM upgrade that works really well  :smiley:

All you need is 3 hours of your time and 2 x hose clamps.  I used the OEM ones for the MK6 / S3. 

I've read a few fitting guides and they mention that the driver's side boost hose needs trimming after you've pulled the metal ends off.  Didn't need to do that on my Edition 30.  Just pull the ends off and off you go.  I used side cutters and pliers.  2 mins per hose.  Some folk use a hacksaw.  Which ever works best  :happy2:

Oh and whilst fitting it, I noticed the bottom half of my A/C condenser is pretty much blocked up with crud, bugs and folded over cooling fins.   With a new condenser fitted, I expect the gains will be even greater.
I am swapping out my airtec cooler for a mk6 r cooler this weekend. Do the hoses which come on the mk6 r need any adjustment? I still have my oem ones but if I can't get away with swapping the whole lot including hoses that would help.

Cheers

You literally just cut the metal ends off the OEM MK5 hoses and that's it. Or if your IC comes with the MK6 hoses already, they should be plug and play.   On the driver's side, I would recommend a new O-ring and clip for that side as it still needs to clip into the rigid pipe under the crank pulley unfortunately!


2007 ED30 | 2009 TDI 140 | 2016 BMW 330D

Offline Beej

  • Always Involved
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 23
  • Posts: 403
    • Email
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2016, 03:48:46 pm »
I am doing a complete swap from one car to the other, both intercoolers are only a year old, so I will just use the hoses I take off his, saves having to cut the ends off mine

Offline pudding

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 690
  • Posts: 8354
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2016, 03:52:09 pm »
I'm sorry but I don't think you can "butt dyno" temperature differences on an intercooler.
I don't think TFSIs start pulling timing till the inlet temp is over 40 degrees which you won't get to in this temperature unless you are hooning it.

I fitted a THS intercooler and I did not make any more power or torque at all. It held power at the top end better but we are talking 2 or 3 bhp.

I would have rather spent £180 on an Ebay THS cooler and a new air conditioning condenser, as you say you will benefit from the better airflow as most of the air enters through the bottom center grill.

I'm not so naïve as to believe simply bolting on an intercooler will make an extra 100hp, but it has made a difference, end of.   Like I said, the improvements I could feel were likely down to a combination of things, but it is a better intercooler than the standard part, end of.

Just because the ECU isn't pulling timing, doesn't mean the denser inlet charge won't be felt.

In your situation are talking about an Edition 30 or a Scirocco diesel?

A Scirocco diesel with 36psi of boost from a turbo bigger than what an ED30 has... :smiley: 
I suspect any improvements was that your head telling you that since you've spent £250+ that it must be quicker (unless of course you had some minor leaks they are quite common).

You won't gain any more power at stock or stage 1 tunes unless doing repeated flat out pulls, as I said it will not be pulling timing till the intake temps are quite high indeed.

I didn't say it wasn't better or worse, but that it won't provide you any increases and I'd have personally rather bought a Ebay THS cooler and a new AC Condensor.

I am a firm believe of proovable increases - dyno before and after or a log of intake temperatures would be proof.
The main increase I found from a larger intercooler was heatsoak when going slowly or stopped (in traffic) was far less.
I'm glad you are happy but i don't think you can really say "it's quicker" without any proof? I'm not being horrible or derogatory to you but i like being accountable.

So we're comparing apples to oranges then, always a good start.

I've seen the way you debate on Pistonheads and it does come over as derogatory I'm afraid.  And I know more about this subject than you appear to give me credit for.
 
Good for you, you spend your money how you see fit.  I wouldn't spend my money on a carcinogenic smoke belching Derv Scirocco personally, but each to our own eh?  :smiley:

You are a firm believer in provable gains eh?  You had nothing 'provable' to contribute in the Revo 400hp Octavia thread when a very clued up guy said it was BS, if I recall.  You more or less surmised if it feels quicker, then it is, which is what we all think, no?  So what's your problem with my intercooler findings then?  I bolted it on, car feels better, so what?  I'm not into this whole Pistonheads style of having to justify myself and provide scientific evidence to back up my claims.  Pistonheads is for tit for tat, this forum is somewhat above that as we're enthusiasts, not nerds.



2007 ED30 | 2009 TDI 140 | 2016 BMW 330D

Offline xjay1337

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 15
  • -Receive: 377
  • Posts: 4916
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,88399.0.html
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2016, 04:12:32 pm »

So we're comparing apples to oranges then, always a good start.

I've seen the way you debate on Pistonheads and it does come over as derogatory I'm afraid.  And I know more about this subject than you appear to give me credit for.
 
Good for you, you spend your money how you see fit.  I wouldn't spend my money on a carcinogenic smoke belching Derv Scirocco personally, but each to our own eh?  :smiley:

You are a firm believer in provable gains eh?  You had nothing 'provable' to contribute in the Revo 400hp Octavia thread when a very clued up guy said it was BS, if I recall.  You more or less surmised if it feels quicker, then it is, which is what we all think, no?  So what's your problem with my intercooler findings then?  I bolted it on, car feels better, so what?  I'm not into this whole Pistonheads style of having to justify myself and provide scientific evidence to back up my claims.  Pistonheads is for tit for tat, this forum is somewhat above that as we're enthusiasts, not nerds.

I don't really care what you think about diesels - or what you know (or don't know) about intercoolers or tuning cars since I don't know your experience level (nor have I questioned it. I questioned your claimed results)

The fact is that, in itself, an intercooler does not provide you with power per se. It allows you to maintain your power in hot conditions and multiple full power runs, and, at higher levels of tune, not be held back by restrictive cores or poor cooling creating high inlet temps which causes you to lose power.
Charge air is charge air and it doesn't matter whether it's petrol, diesel or piss that it's running on.

I have done before and after runs when fitting an upgraded intercooler (going from the stock TDI intercooler, same as a normal GTI one, to in my case a THS) and it proved to be no different, except at the top end where it held power slightly better but didn't actually improve peak power and certainly not enough to feel it (you are not going to feel 5 or 10bhp on the road).

As I have said in the past, if you are happy with it then great - but I think it's misleading to other people who may be reading the thread to believe that if they spend £250+ on an intercooler their car will feel quicker where as I do not believe that it does on a stock or even Stage 1 car without repeated high speed runs with limited recovery time.

I didn't need to prove anything in the Pistonheads topic you mention (which is completely unrelated to this one I might add!!!)
 A few (3 or 4) members seem to troll highly tuned "normal" car threads, saying they are all BS - without any evidence or proof to back up their argument (that the car wasn't doing 400bhp). Then you have the people (I presume like you) who see lots of big words talking about cylinder peak pressures and side with them rather than the actual measured output.
If a bolt on map with no other modifications, can achieve 370bhp I'm very confident adding intake, exhaust and intercooler will contribute to a 400bhp peak figure.

Revo had dyno proof of their power, as well as acceleration times which were around the same as other cars of similar claimed power.
But as I said this is completely unrelated to this intercooler discussion.  I was not rude or derogatory to you at all in this post.
I post in different styles on different forums. So I don't really think it's your business how or what I post on other forums, whether they are PH, Mumsnet or Pornhub.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 04:14:11 pm by xjay1337 »

Offline r5gtt

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 342
  • -Receive: 334
  • Posts: 5586
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2016, 04:28:53 pm »
I'm going to stick a Chinese cheapo on when the time comes  :rolleye:  :driver:

ebayyyyyyyyy  :jumping:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/FMIC-FRONT-MOUNT-TURBO-INTERCOOLER-550x225x64MM-2-5-BLACK-/190451359946?nav=SEARCH

Offline pudding

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 690
  • Posts: 8354
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2016, 04:41:46 pm »

So we're comparing apples to oranges then, always a good start.

I've seen the way you debate on Pistonheads and it does come over as derogatory I'm afraid.  And I know more about this subject than you appear to give me credit for.
 
Good for you, you spend your money how you see fit.  I wouldn't spend my money on a carcinogenic smoke belching Derv Scirocco personally, but each to our own eh?  :smiley:

You are a firm believer in provable gains eh?  You had nothing 'provable' to contribute in the Revo 400hp Octavia thread when a very clued up guy said it was BS, if I recall.  You more or less surmised if it feels quicker, then it is, which is what we all think, no?  So what's your problem with my intercooler findings then?  I bolted it on, car feels better, so what?  I'm not into this whole Pistonheads style of having to justify myself and provide scientific evidence to back up my claims.  Pistonheads is for tit for tat, this forum is somewhat above that as we're enthusiasts, not nerds.

I don't really care what you think about diesels - or what you know (or don't know) about intercoolers or tuning cars since I don't know your experience level (nor have I questioned it. I questioned your claimed results)

The fact is that, in itself, an intercooler does not provide you with power per se. It allows you to maintain your power in hot conditions and multiple full power runs, and, at higher levels of tune, not be held back by restrictive cores or poor cooling creating high inlet temps which causes you to lose power.
Charge air is charge air and it doesn't matter whether it's petrol, diesel or piss that it's running on.

I have done before and after runs when fitting an upgraded intercooler (going from the stock TDI intercooler, same as a normal GTI one, to in my case a THS) and it proved to be no different, except at the top end where it held power slightly better but didn't actually improve peak power and certainly not enough to feel it (you are not going to feel 5 or 10bhp on the road).

As I have said in the past, if you are happy with it then great - but I think it's misleading to other people who may be reading the thread to believe that if they spend £250+ on an intercooler their car will feel quicker where as I do not believe that it does on a stock or even Stage 1 car without repeated high speed runs with limited recovery time.

I didn't need to prove anything in the Pistonheads topic you mention (which is completely unrelated to this one I might add!!!)
 A few (3 or 4) members seem to troll highly tuned "normal" car threads, saying they are all BS - without any evidence or proof to back up their argument (that the car wasn't doing 400bhp). Then you have the people (I presume like you) who see lots of big words talking about cylinder peak pressures and side with them rather than the actual measured output.
If a bolt on map with no other modifications, can achieve 370bhp I'm very confident adding intake, exhaust and intercooler will contribute to a 400bhp peak figure.

Revo had dyno proof of their power, as well as acceleration times which were around the same as other cars of similar claimed power.
But as I said this is completely unrelated to this intercooler discussion.  I was not rude or derogatory to you at all in this post.
I post in different styles on different forums. So I don't really think it's your business how or what I post on other forums, whether they are PH, Mumsnet or Pornhub.

There's always one drama queen.  This thread is 6 pages long.  Why did you suddenly decide to join it today, and contribute nothing constructive?  Your intention was to question my findings and nothing else.

Where have I tried to mislead anyone?  Read my post again and actually take on board what I said, not what you wanted to read from it to support your own argument.

Compared to a lot of branded aftermarket intercoolers, it is cheap and a guaranteed perfect fit because it's OEM.  That is very reasonable in my book and a safe bet for anyone who is slightly nervous about steering away from OEM.

I know exactly how intercoolers work and what their role is, thanks.  Just because in your own journey you didn't find any more power, it doesn't mean no one else will.  An intercooler merely facilitates more power, it is not the sole provider of it, but then you knew that already, so why were you expecting more power in the first place?

Come off it, you came in here to stir up a bit of bother because you are Mr big shot derv man who thinks he knows everything about boosted petrol and derv VAGs.


2007 ED30 | 2009 TDI 140 | 2016 BMW 330D

Offline xjay1337

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 15
  • -Receive: 377
  • Posts: 4916
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,88399.0.html
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2016, 06:52:00 pm »

You have only recently fitted the intercooler and I questioned your results.

Hence why I commented. Thats what a forum is for. Questioining and discussion of modifications.

People who know me know that I don't take myself too seriously and that I dont think I'm a big man at all, lol. Quite the opposite.

While I quite enjoy a wind up on the FB groups I have enjoyed this community here for the last 3 or 4 years so try not to troll (too much) :-)

I'm not getting into an on going tit for tat argument. Ive said my piece. So will leave it at that.

Offline rich83

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 165
  • -Receive: 802
  • Posts: 13444
    • MK5 Golf GTI
  • My Ride: https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=u9pvoti1vle1ofigkq6vrpmkgo&/topic,19740.0.html
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2016, 09:34:06 am »
And intercooler can unlock potential power if the core is efficient and the flow and pressure drop is significantly better.

Offline Paradox1

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 41
  • -Receive: 82
  • Posts: 1038
    • Email
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2016, 10:31:27 am »
Can only take from experience but I had a turboback and intake on my last car. when I added the intercooler, I cant say it made more power before the map but it did feel more urgent and did pull harder.

Offline pudding

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 690
  • Posts: 8354
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #84 on: May 06, 2016, 12:12:39 pm »

You have only recently fitted the intercooler and I questioned your results.

Hence why I commented. Thats what a forum is for. Questioining and discussion of modifications.

People who know me know that I don't take myself too seriously and that I dont think I'm a big man at all, lol. Quite the opposite.

While I quite enjoy a wind up on the FB groups I have enjoyed this community here for the last 3 or 4 years so try not to troll (too much) :-)

I'm not getting into an on going tit for tat argument. Ive said my piece. So will leave it at that.

Fair enough, let's agree to disagree.  Two stags locking horns can only go on for so long :)

I was thinking the other night, as you do, that perhaps you didn't find any gains because you need a significantly larger intercooler in your application?  More flow than a K04 chucks out and 36psi.  Maybe you need an IC the size of a football pitch?  Aren't diesel intake charge / running temps lower than petrol turbos anyway? 

I was also thinking that the standard IC was spec'd for a K03 running standard boost pressure.  The MK6 R unit was spec'd for a K04 running more boost than a GTI, so naturally anyone with an Edition 30 is going to get some benefit from dropping the R unit in.  VW were obviously being cheap when it came to the Edition 30.

Whilst I can't prove it with numbers right now, the car feels better to drive.  I don't think MK6 Rs would make the numbers they do with a standard MK5 intercooler, so the potential is definitely there.


2007 ED30 | 2009 TDI 140 | 2016 BMW 330D

Offline xjay1337

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 15
  • -Receive: 377
  • Posts: 4916
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,88399.0.html
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2016, 02:14:32 pm »
Indeed :) let's agree to that

Perhaps, but it works in two ways.
My dyno charts for that particular test were on stock turbo which is probably about the same size as a k03. Since then we have put the large turbo on, I have no data on gains at this level. But I would imagine total power would not be much lower if at all.

The problem is you can increase the flow but you end up needing more air to begin with as the total capacity of the charge air system so you may actually end up with more lag if you go for an intercooler over a certain size.
I'm sure the core of the R cooler is better than a normal GTI and total flow may be improved (larger inlets and outlets).

Regarding R coolers, the Edition 30 uses a normal GTI intercooler and get fairly similar numbers.   :drinking:

Offline pudding

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 690
  • Posts: 8354
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #86 on: May 06, 2016, 04:57:22 pm »
Yeah the MK6 R one is up 20% surface area over the standard MK5 part.  It also has improved rails and other internal improvements.

Did some IAT logging over the other night and I found exactly what people using the metal S3 ic did.  The temps are a few degrees lower across the board (compared to a log I have with the standard ic) and it doesn't heat soak when you're pulling to the redline hard in 4th and 5th.  The MK5 one is pretty bad for heat soaking with the boost turned up, especially in the summer months.

I know there are better intercoolers out there.  APRs certainly looks a nice piece, but the OEM R part is a third of the price.  Is the APR one 3 times better?  I have my doubts  :smiley:

I'd love to look into water charge cooler for this engine using Mercedes AMG parts, as they really do knock the intake path practically down to zero, but I haven't got the time!



2007 ED30 | 2009 TDI 140 | 2016 BMW 330D

Offline jacobrownoly

  • Always Involved
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 23
  • -Receive: 8
  • Posts: 205
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #87 on: May 06, 2016, 10:54:24 pm »
As stated before I can't believe the difference the Airtec stage 2 intercooler made on my stage 2+ ko3.

Offline AJP

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 392
  • -Receive: 316
  • Posts: 3212
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2016, 11:50:57 am »
As stated before I can't believe the difference the Airtec stage 2 intercooler made on my stage 2+ ko3.
I'm pretty sure someone on here is removing his Airtec cooler and swapping it for an S3/R part as it was deemed too voluminous by the tuner (think it was Niki). Too much lag/boost drop. This was also 2+ K03.

But I've seen plenty like you who get good results from Peron/Airtec with a K03.

Food for thought.

Offline Beej

  • Always Involved
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 23
  • Posts: 403
    • Email
Re: Golf Mk5 Gti Intercooler vs Edition 30
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2016, 04:45:56 pm »
As stated before I can't believe the difference the Airtec stage 2 intercooler made on my stage 2+ ko3.
I'm pretty sure someone on here is removing his Airtec cooler and swapping it for an S3/R part as it was deemed too voluminous by the tuner (think it was Niki). Too much lag/boost drop. This was also 2+ K03.

But I've seen plenty like you who get good results from Peron/Airtec with a K03.

Food for thought.
That would be me, and I have replaced it this morning!

Removed mine and his off his 6r at the same time and swapped them over (plus cash my way). Straight swap with the boost hoses if anyone is interested!