GTI stage 2+ is it really worth it ?

[Janner_Sy]

in that case RR

you need an uprated HPFP so that its not on the limit of its ability, then an intercooler to insure heat is kept to a minimum.
thats balance and longevity in one there, you dont have to max it out on aggressive settings to get the improvement, you already prved that with your twintake. plus you wont have to drive it so hard to get the same perfomance.

All plus points for me....not that im trying to make you get more POWER!!!!!!!!

[vRS Carl]

Carl I disagree with you there mate.

you were there at JKM in feb last year when i loaded the bluefin stage 2 map on whilst still using the stock exhaust, Bluefin even state the Downpipe as as being required before you fit the map.

it drove really erratically, so i loaded the stage 1 back on, and when i fitted the exhaust, i installed that same map and it was nothin like that in comparsion

Thats what you get for buying a sh*te map then isn't it

Your map was obviously written to take into account the less restrictive nature of the Down pipe.

As i and Ian found that Stage 2 with just an Intake (EVOMS in both cases) was absolutley fine so       

Carl

[Janner_Sy]

Your map was obviously written to take into account the less restrictive nature of the Down pipe.

That would sound about right to be honest. thast where REVO and the SPS comes into its own with the adjustability.  

Thats what you get for buying a sh*te map then isn't it

haha by nice or pay twice 

[RedRobin]

^^^^
Intercooler is on my list. But a HPFP really isn't necessary on my car on Revo2 I'm advised by JKM. Furthermore, JKM strongly recommend me the APR HPFP over the Autotech/KMD and it's not cheap and not a priority.

So, in answer to the original question whether Stage2+ is really worth it, the answer is definitely no for myself. For those of you in a never ending quest for more and more power etc, the answer will of course be yes.

Whether it's worth it financially or not is up to the individual's cashflow or availability. Gaining power is a subject of diminishing returns - You have to spend more and more money for smaller and smaller gains as you increase performance.

[Sunglasses Ron]

here are times of a vRS revo stage 2+  with the obvious traction issues in 2nd

30-50 = 1.6 secs (in 2nd gear) :D

30-70 = 4.1 secs (in 3rd gear) :D:D

50-100 = 7.7 secs (in just 4th gear)

One of these you mean mate.. Great bit of kit and very accurate.. 

I wonder who's vRS and in-Gear times they are   

Carl

#

they wernt mine, mine were so fast they nearly didnt register on the stop watch. lol. i want to get that perfomance box hurdy has to dpo some proper testing. GPS doesnt lie

[KRL]

....I don't see how installing my Twintake and gaining bhp and torque but without changing my oem fuel pump is stepping backwards at all. Every individual car is either different or has a different package of mods and being able to adjust Revo's settings is merely fine tuning to best suit both the car and you.

The point is that the ability to change Boost/Timing/Fuel settings provides choices. It means that I have not had to change pump etc etc. In fact I haven't had to reduce power via my settings either but at least I have the choice if problems were to arise and to do so without extra expense.

Perhaps "taking full advantage" to you means squeezing everything you can from something. Now, is that driven by a desire for absolute maximum power or a desire to satisfy a need to maximise what you call value-for-money?

My preference is to achieve a healthy balance which delivers driveability and longevity.

RR we obviously have a bit of a different point of view on this I am not criticising you so please do not take it that way as I am just airing my thoughts. 

I do a lot of logging on my S3 and did a lot of logging on my previous K03 A3.  For me when I add any hardware to the car it is not just about BHP and torque figures - It is about making sure that everything is working well and as it should.  In that respect you and I have a very similar philosophy when it comes to modding - "to achieve a healthy balance which delivers driveability and longevity".  Mine is not just to get the maximum out of the car at the cost of longevity and reliability.

I guess the difference between us is that I spend a lot of time delving into understanding the technicalities of how things work where as you rely more upon the good advise of others like JKM but unfortunately I feel that sometimes causes you to bark up the wrong tree.

What did JKM change your settings to and from when installing the Forge CAI?  I am guessing the will have richened up your AFR a little to reduce your EGTs at the redline so you are probably running F8 or F7?  They also may have reduced your boost to ease the demand on your HPFP when the turbo is boosting?

[RedRobin]

I guess the difference between us is that I spend a lot of time delving into understanding the technicalities of how things work where as you rely more upon the good advise of others like JKM but unfortunately I feel that sometimes causes you to bark up the wrong tree.

What did JKM change your settings to and from when installing the Forge CAI?  I am guessing the will have richened up your AFR a little to reduce your EGTs at the redline so you are probably running F8 or F7?  They also may have reduced your boost to ease the demand on your HPFP when the turbo is boosting?

.... Absolutely right and no offence taken.

Re my Revo settings: Air to Fuel (AFR) plot was flat-lining in both Carbonio and Twintake sessions as it should do. Revo2 was already set B7 / T5 / F9 for the Carbonio and later adjusted to F8 after the Twintake runs. We expected that we might have to reduce Boost for exactly the pump reasons you mention but didn't need to.

[KRL]

^^^^
Intercooler is on my list. But a HPFP really isn't necessary on my car on Revo2 I'm advised by JKM. Furthermore, JKM strongly recommend me the APR HPFP over the Autotech/KMD and it's not cheap and not a priority.

There really is no real evidence out there suggesting APRs pump is any better than the Autotech/KMD etc.  To start with I was sold on the APR pump but now after doing a lot of searching I am not so sure anymore.  I have also found no evidence that it performs any better than the Autotech at maintaining requested rail pressure. The APR marketing blurb may make you think otherwise but talk to the people who actually have these pumps installed and then you will get the real picture.  I was under the impression that the reason JKM stopped supplying the Autotech was because it was too labour intensive for them to test and install.

To me when paying the premium for the APR HPFP the extra you get above an internal upgrade is:
- You get replacement upgraded pump (so that you can easily switch back to the stock HPFP). Remember the APR pumps start off as a stock HPFP just as the internals upgrades do.
- The pump is tested in the factory, however I have heard their testing facility only tests the pumps up to 5 bar so not even close to the 130 bar that a stage 2+ map will be requesting.

So I think it comes down to whether you think the premium on the APR pump is justified for the extras you get. Personally I do not think so and I think as long as you get an internals upgrade pump fitted properly it will be just as good.

So, in answer to the original question whether Stage2+ is really worth it, the answer is definitely no for myself. For those of you in a never ending quest for more and more power etc, the answer will of course be yes.

Have you ever considered the other benefits a HPFP would bring other than just power?  There are actually good reasons to buy a hpfp if you are already stage 2 and are interested in reliability and longevity:
 - A HPFP will allow you to run a richer AFR which results in lower EGTs.  High EGTs are the number 1 killer of turbos.
 - A HPFP will prevent you from running into fuel cuts and misfires

JKM themselves even recommend installing a HPFP at stage one if you have a CAI!

[KRL]

[
We expected that we might have to reduce Boost for exactly the pump reasons you mention but didn't need to.

In that case I'll take my previous statement back.  You have not taken any steps back after installing the Twintake 

[vRS Carl]

RR

I agree that you on your setup don't need the HPFP. As i said earlier the HPFP is only needed IF you get fuel cuts on Stage 2. I was one of the unlucky ones who suffered fuel cuts.

However it is a requirement of Stage 2+ as the map is written specifically for the HPFP.

The APR pump is regarded as the safest way to go however i have had the Autotech Internals in mine for just over 40k miles. I have changed the Cam Follower twice now and the wear on it was nothing to worry about.

They did produce a bad batch sometime ago but that has been rectified now as far as i am aware. So as has been previously mentioned it's wether or not you think the APR premium (which is basically your paying someone to swap the internals as thats all they do and it's about £400 over the Autotech internals) is worth it. Personally i don't and i think a lot of APR's stuff (although very high quality and very well made) is over priced in the UK

At the OP

To give you an idea if Stage 2+ is worth it. I have a Stage 2+ Octavia vRS.

A friend of mine has recently bought a new Focus RS. On paper his car should wipe it's arse with my car. We recently had a bit of a shootout on a runway where i was working.

From a standing start by the time we had reached 60mph my Nose was about 1/2 meter behind his rear bumper. By the time we reached  150mph i was about 10m ahead.

Any in gear test we did he initially pulled away due to the diff (i dont have a diff…….yet  ) however i always caught up and overtook him.

Now i'm not for one minute suggesting that my car is faster in the real world. What i will say though is that i can quite happily sit on his rear bumper on a twisty road and he has to work hard to sit on mine if lead the route.

HTH

Carl

[RedRobin]

JKM themselves even recommend installing a HPFP at stage one if you have a CAI!

....Then you have totally different information from myself. I have an email from Keith and have had several conversations with both Keith and Jim about the need or not for a HPFP and it doesn't match what you say about Stage1.

They have also been very specific about their preference for the APR HPFP but let's not take this into an off-topic debate. Although there are most definitely quite a few real experts on this forum, I trust my advice from JKM on such subjects.

Regards the rest of your post:   Info much appreciated. Especially : -

Have you ever considered the other benefits a HPFP would bring other than just power?  There are actually good reasons to buy a hpfp if you are already stage 2 and are interested in reliability and longevity:

 - A HPFP will allow you to run a richer AFR which results in lower EGTs.  High EGTs are the number 1 killer of turbos.

 - A HPFP will prevent you from running into fuel cuts and misfires.

....I'm not getting any fuel cuts or misfires so far.

[vRS Carl]

JKM changed to APR pumps due to the bad batch of Autotech ones.

I'm not disputing the advice JKM give I always listen to Keith & Jim's advice over what others say aswell.

I was just lucky enough to get one of the original batches of Autotech internals and have had no problems in 40k miles

However I will say that if I was looking for one now I would only use the APR pump dispute it's ludicrous price. Just for peace of mind.

Carl

[RedRobin]

However I will say that if I was looking for one now I would only use the APR pump dispite it's ludicrous price. Just for peace of mind.

Carl

.... x 2

And because JKM would be the ones fitting whichever pump I got and they would be supporting it.

[Hedge]

I was just lucky enough to get one of the original batches of Autotech internals and have had no problems in 40k miles

You were weren't you. 

[Sunglasses Ron]

here are times of a vRS revo stage 2+  with the obvious traction issues in 2nd

30-50 = 1.6 secs (in 2nd gear) :D

30-70 = 4.1 secs (in 3rd gear) :D:D

50-100 = 7.7 secs (in just 4th gear)

I wonder who's vRS and in-Gear times they are   

Carl

#

they wernt mine, mine were so fast they nearly didnt register on the stop watch. lol. i want to get that perfomance box hurdy has to dpo some proper testing. GPS doesnt lie

You mean one of these mate?

Cracking bit of kit and very accurate..