Intake waste of money?

[bonelorry]

Some bold claims for the VWR one.  Up to +9% peak power and turbo spool reduced by 500rpm.  The latter I'm a little skeptical of personally, given it's the turbine wheel / housing that has the biggest influence on spool up

They don't state under what conditions and mechanical spec you get those gains.  For example, do you need a full exhaust to see those improvements?  And at what boost pressure and rpm do you see that +9% increase in hp?

£450 is a lot to take a punt on it, based on vague sales pitching.

I suspect VW Racing saw those gains on their own racing car, which runs shed loads of boost, full exhaust etc etc.  I reckon a mild stage 1 tune with just a DP would probably see about +5% because at 1.4-1.5 bar, the turbo isn't struggling that badly to get air in.  So around 15hp for £450?  I don't really see that as a good £ per hp investment personally, but that's only because that kind of money is almost a VWR spring a damper set, which would give more profound and noticeable gains from the get go :)

I would assume that those types of gains would be achieved when the Standard Air-box assembly and intake are becoming a restriction and the weakest point in the set-up. On an Edition 30 this would probably be beyond 300BHP or a good Stage 1.

My Golf R made 313BHP on the Stock Air-Box which is the same as the ED30 set up.

I have seen cars with Evoms and Revo intakes make similar figures to my own cars which have both have stock set ups although this is at Stage 1, However as you mentioned the Exhaust is the restriction beyond Stage 1!

Not sure what the limits are on the stock Airbox?

When I was dealing with tuning Saab's a few Years back the Standard Air-Box on the 9-3's would support 400BHP happily!

[Shoduchi]

I would assume that those types of gains would be achieved when the Standard Air-box assembly and intake are becoming a restriction and the weakest point in the set-up. On an Edition 30 this would probably be beyond 300BHP or a good Stage 1.

My Golf R made 313BHP on the Stock Air-Box which is the same as the ED30 set up.

I have seen cars with Evoms and Revo intakes make similar figures to my own cars which have both have stock set ups although this is at Stage 1, However as you mentioned the Exhaust is the restriction beyond Stage 1!

Not sure what the limits are on the stock Airbox?

When I was dealing with tuning Saab's a few Years back the Standard Air-Box on the 9-3's would support 400BHP happily!

My Ed. 30 with petrol 98 made 330 CV multiple times on the dyno. My tuner told me the airbox wasn't restricting the power at this point (my current tuning is requesting 1.4 bar of stable boost). He wasn't willing to push the engine and DSG more at this point, to keep everything reliable. He was more worried about increasing the torque than anything else. He offered me instead the option of getting petrol 100 if I wanted more power.

From what I read in this forum from Niki Gower the airbox can handle 330-340 BHP. Beyond that it's restrictive.

[AJP]

Here's a curveball then... Niki told me that the drop off in power at the top of my rev range was because of my standard airbox (Stage 2 k03).



Interesting claims with VWR. I've heard that Niki likes the Revo intake. To be honest I don't think an intake alone is going to make a huge difference to the top end of a k03 car. I'll get a better turbo for that, and probably stick an intake on to help it flow a little more while I'm at it.

[Shoduchi]

I had the DSG tuned and the rpm limited upped from 6500 rpm to 7000 rpm. Unfortunately the power stabilised at 330 CV from 6500-7000 rpm. Maybe I'd get more with a more open intake. Just not sure if the money is worth it. I might in the future try the VWR intake.

[pudding]

Good info about the Ed30 vs GTI OEM paper filter.  I didn't know that!  So it has the same amount of pleats, just not as thick?

330-350hp seems a reasonable restriction limit for the factory airbox.  If it were THAT restrictive, paper filters would buckle and distort and the intake tube / airbox would collapse under max boost / rpm, like humans inhaling on a crisp packet.

Here's a curveball then... Niki told me that the drop off in power at the top of my rev range was because of my standard airbox (Stage 2 k03).



Interesting claims with VWR. I've heard that Niki likes the Revo intake. To be honest I don't think an intake alone is going to make a huge difference to the top end of a k03 car. I'll get a better turbo for that, and probably stick an intake on to help it flow a little more while I'm at it.

That looks like a normal K03 curve to me.  It does start to run out of puff past 5500 like that anyway and the two lines neatly converge at 6000, where it has little more to give. I can't see an intake making a huge difference, although replacing the standard thing with a big pipe is always going to improve flow into the turbo a bit, well, into the MAF housing at least.  You might find perhaps, a realistic 10hp up there with a decent intake on the K03?

Turbo engines are fighting two pressure differentials.  The exhaust gases leaving the cylinder, and the boost pressure entering it.  The turbo struggling to draw enough air in ranks quite far behind those two challenges and only becomes a factor when they've both been freed off as much as possible.  Any power you do find from an intake is always right at the top end, where not that many of us drive at for very long!  I can't remember the last time I exceeded 7000rpm!

[AJP]

Good info about the Ed30 vs GTI OEM paper filter.  I didn't know that!  So it has the same amount of pleats, just not as thick?

330-350hp seems a reasonable restriction limit for the factory airbox.  If it were THAT restrictive, paper filters would buckle and distort and the intake tube / airbox would collapse under max boost / rpm, like humans inhaling on a crisp packet.

Here's a curveball then... Niki told me that the drop off in power at the top of my rev range was because of my standard airbox (Stage 2 k03).



Interesting claims with VWR. I've heard that Niki likes the Revo intake. To be honest I don't think an intake alone is going to make a huge difference to the top end of a k03 car. I'll get a better turbo for that, and probably stick an intake on to help it flow a little more while I'm at it.

That looks like a normal K03 curve to me.  It does start to run out of puff past 5500 like that anyway and the two lines neatly converge at 6000, where it has little more to give. I can't see an intake making a huge difference, although replacing the standard thing with a big pipe is always going to improve flow into the turbo a bit, well, into the MAF housing at least.  You might find perhaps, a realistic 10hp up there with a decent intake on the K03?

Turbo engines are fighting two pressure differentials.  The exhaust gases leaving the cylinder, and the boost pressure entering it.  The turbo struggling to draw enough air in ranks quite far behind those two challenges and only becomes a factor when they've both been freed off as much as possible.  Any power you do find from an intake is always right at the top end, where not that many of us drive at for very long!  I can't remember the last time I exceeded 7000rpm!

I'm with you on that mate. Well put.
Like I said, I'm prioritising a turbo upgrade over an intake. Just seems futile expecting big things from an intake unless you're at the very least on a 2+ k04. I'd imagine with a k03 hybrid and associated 2+ mods a decent intake could be a nice thing to have, but still not exactly essential.

[pudding]

I was also thinking if the same airbox on the Edition can support 300+hp, your curve is definitely the turbo running out of puff 

Yeah a bigger turbo is the way forward.  I just wish the TTE turbos weren't 2 grand!

[AJP]

I was also thinking if the same airbox on the Edition can support 300+hp, your curve is definitely the turbo running out of puff 

Yeah a bigger turbo is the way forward.  I just wish the TTE turbos weren't 2 grand!

I don't have the luxury of strong internals so I'm conveniently (in a financial sense) capped to ~350bhp!

I'm sure I'd have priced up one of TTE's offerings if I was in a k04 car though

[Dan_FR]

I was also thinking if the same airbox on the Edition can support 300+hp, your curve is definitely the turbo running out of puff 

Yeah a bigger turbo is the way forward.  I just wish the TTE turbos weren't 2 grand!

It doesn't work like that. A big turbo could pull 500hp from the factory airbox,  but it doesn't mean it's "good" for that hp on any turbo setup.

Same as a cat or decat.  Just because a stage 1/1+ K04 can make 340hp with the standard cat in place,  doesn't mean it's "good" for that level of hp and won't become a restriction at a much lower level of power on a smaller turbo

[spwd]

Just read this thread and will be picking up my 06 dsg gti this week and usually I guess an intake is the first thing done on many cars but you guys are saying they're not worth the expense and I'd be better off buying a panel filter like the one @Ollieeee  is selling?

 When I had my MR2 Turbo a few years back the intake and intercooler made a massive difference so what's the difference?

[Speedy83]

How about panelfilter in stock airbox, is this completly unnecessery or do they have any positive impact on a stock or Stage 1 on a k03 turbo engine?

[Dan_FR]

Cats should be first to go, they are the major restriction. An intake is beneficial to mapped cars especially to release the 'peak hp' numbers at higher rpm

[spwd]

So would you recommend buying oliies carbonio panel filter, don't want to miss it if I don't need an intake.

[Dan_FR]

Define 'need'?

It helps to know what your power goals are... Pointless buying a panel filter if you're going to get a proper intake at a later date.

A panel filter is middle ground. A lot cheaper, marginal gains over standard and just as quiet. An intake (such as the Revo or similar) will give better gains but cost more and they are a lot louder (which to me is no bad thing.

The graph above and Niki's advice is spot on - That man tunes these cars day in day out and is the most honest & decent 'business owner' I've ever met. The standard airbox WILL choke the K03 at higher rpm as the little turbo runs out of puff (and is the limiting factor of peak power at Stage 2), so the key is to maximise efficiency and minimise restrictions..... but again, it depends what you want and what your end goal is

[spwd]

Thanks for the info Dan, I'm not planning on stage 2 whatever that's defined as, I'll perhaps do the first few easy mods usually nice sounding exhaust and a sports cat as you say that's a big restriction and I'd usually do an intake but if it doesn't make any difference in power on basically a standard car then I'd sooner save my £250 or put it to better use, basically I'm asking what are the first few mods usually done if an intake isn't one of them, hopefully you know what I mean