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Author Topic: Intake waste of money?  (Read 42355 times)

Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2016, 10:06:36 am »
@Pudding Don't worry about testing the VWR intake, it's my next mod along with a lighter engine pulley.

A stage 2 tune doesn't require an upgraded HPFP. Not sure what boost levels R-Tech usually uses for stage 2 but I've seen stage 2+ maps going up to 1.7-1.8 bar around 4500-5000 rpm. For those tunes I consider the OEM air box restrictive. AFAIK all those engine covers air boxes are equivalent. Just the TTS/R32/TTRS use a bigger air box on the side of the engine.

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2016, 10:34:48 am »
@Pudding Don't worry about testing the VWR intake, it's my next mod along with a lighter engine pulley.

A stage 2 tune doesn't require an upgraded HPFP. Not sure what boost levels R-Tech usually uses for stage 2 but I've seen stage 2+ maps going up to 1.7-1.8 bar around 4500-5000 rpm. For those tunes I consider the OEM air box restrictive. AFAIK all those engine covers air boxes are equivalent. Just the TTS/R32/TTRS use a bigger air box on the side of the engine.

Cool, I look forward to seeing the results.  It is one of the best ones on the market imo, if not THE best.  I know it will free off some top end power, but I'm more interested in the noise levels and if it affects the off boost responsiveness.

I think each engine dictates it's own fuelling requirements.  Mine wouldn't get past 280hp without a HPFP with a 1.4 bar tune. It threw low rail pressure faults and lambda was pegged out at +25%.  That was with a new OEM LPFP too.  My tuner found some cars go well past 300hp with the standard pump, and some don't. There's no pattern to it, not even with brand new OEM pumps. 
1.8 bar! That's a lot for a 100K+ mile old standard turbo, but agreed, the airbox would probably hold it back a bit at that kind of boost. 


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Offline bonelorry

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2016, 11:04:16 am »
I can't say I am experiencing any negative effects running a Revo Intake, I am a big fan of running the OE Airbox and have done on previous cars but on the Golf R I plan on going beyond Stage 1 and so the Airbox has had to go.

I saw an Audi S3 8P in at R-Tech recently for a Stage 2 Map, Hardware wise it had a Full BCS Turbo Back Exhaust but was running the stock Airbox. It made 317BHP & 332LB/FT.

Another S3, Similar car but Stage 1 with the Pre-Cat removed and running a Revo Intake....330BHP & 338LB/FT.

Niki said that the Hardware was holding the Stage 2 powered car back, It should have been around the 340BHP mark.

I know they are different cars and not all cars perform the same.

If I could have got away with keeping the stock airbox and going Stage 2 or 2+ then I would have but it will become a Major restriction at those levels.

Is the airbox bad on the Golf R then?  I've seen a few videos on shopdap.com of various MK7 upgrades and they look pretty decent!

Tbh, that is just one tuners findings and it kind of puts into debate as to whether or not a full 3" TBE is worth it if S3 #1 made less power than S3 #2 with a factory exhaust  :smiley:   And our resident Mr Shoduchi has 340hp from the factory airbox  :smiley:   And let's not forget, the difference between S3 #1 and S3 #2 is only about 5%.   There would be no difference on the road between the 2 cars, but some people do rather get hung up on the peak hp numbers  :smiley: 

Did the Stage 2 car have a Loba pump and what boost pressure is R-Tech Stage 2? Is the S3 airbox the same as the Golf one?  I can't see it holding back the power that much.  Something else is required on that car I'd say, but interesting info all the same!

I'd love put Racingline's intake claim of +25hp to the test on my car, but it's a £450 experiment I can't afford at the moment!

Peak numbers are of no relevance to me whatsover, It is all about how the car drives on the road. Also I would rather fit an item of Hardware even if its not required but aids flow or fuelling and gives more headroom/safety when tuning.

The Airbox on the MK6 Golf R is the same item fitted to just about all of the TFSI range, I am not a Tuner, I don't do any mapping so I cannot gather any real data and ascertain at what point the Stock Airbox becomes a restriction! Has anyone actually fitted Stage 2+ Hardware minus the Intake on a K04 powered car and done back to back Rolling Road testing?

I can only go off....

1. Rolling Road figures I see on a day to day basis at various Tuners at given Stage's and for given Hardware, Obviously I know that in an ideal world 3 cars with all the same hardware and same software should make the same numbers but in reality each car is different. Also that a car with less Hardware can make similar if not more than a car with a full shopping list of parts fitted.

You have to also factor that just because a car can make a certain amount of Power/Torque with Stock hardware fitted does not mean it is an optimum set-up and ideal long term or when driven hard.

2. By going on various tuners websites and looking at what hardware they recommend based on their many hours of R&D when developing their Software.

Findings below are based on my own car, MK6 Golf R K04....

APR's website...

APR’s Stage I ECU Upgrade is designed for vehicles with little to no modification. Expect higher peak numbers of 310 horsepower and 311 ft-lbs of torque, but also gains of up to +57 horsepower and +58 ft-lbs through the power band.

When running the intake specific software with a full high flow intake, more gains can be had. Expect higher peak numbers of 337 horsepower and 309 ft-lbs of torque, but also gains of up to +72 horsepower and +61 ft-lbs through the power band.


Revo...

Stage 2 Performance Software has been specifically developed to attain the best possible performance from the 2.0TFSI K04 with a bolt on performance exhaust and quality cold air intake. Stage 2 software is boost, fuelling and timing adjustable with slightly more flexibility than Stage 1 allowing the vehicle to be setup to suit the fuel quality, driving conditions and driver preferences. 2.0TFSI K04 Stage 2 software is specifically tuned to suit the limitations of the standard high pressure fuel pump limiting the mid-range and giving a fantastic linear power delivery.

GIAC...

Recommend an Intake at Stage 1.

R-Tech...

BYD – BWJ – BHZ – CDL Engines

MIN Requirements for STAGE 2 POWER R-Tech remap session.

Full High Flow Exhaust, Sports cat or Decat Exhaust System, High Flow Cold Air Induction Kit, 5w 40 Oil, Vpower – Tesco 99 or any 98+ Ron Fuel


All tuners pretty much singing the same song that an Intake is required on a K04 powered car when going beyond Stage 1.

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs by the way!

At Stage 1 which is circa 300BHP give or take and depending on the Software and how healthy the car is then the Stock Airbox is fine, It has also been shown by others such as Shoduchi that it can go beyond that on a K04 powered car and that is great. I have made 315BHP on my last ED30 with a Pre-Cat Delete and the Stock Airbox with a Panel Filter, It is doubtful I would have gianed much by fitting an Intake at this level.

However with my current car I intend on going further with Tuning and Stage 2 is going to be the minimum which is circa 340BHP & 340LB/FT of Torque with an R-Tech Map going on what other cars have made recently so I wanted to ensure I have the best flowing set up possible. Hence why I fitted a Revo Intake.

If the Stock Airbox could support 400BHP comfortably I would without a doubt retain it and would never fit an Intake, However I don't want to be a Guinea Pig and turn up on the day with only half the recommend Hardware fitted expecting the car to make the numbers.

So I fit what my tuner recommends for the given stage of tune I am aiming for  :happy2:

Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2016, 01:23:25 pm »
My tuner always said to me that the fuel quality is my engine's biggest limitation, hence the search for a good octane booster to use during my track days. I could buy racing fuel with an higher octane level but it's expensive and more troublesome that adding a booster. From my tuner's experience I'd get +20 HP with the racing fuel and the stock airbox wouldn't make much difference. I'm trying to see if the VWR intake does really unleashes more power at higher rpm, that is what I use more on track days. My tuner doubts that it will help significantly in my car.

As a side note, I don't need more power during daily driving than what I currently have. I can only really benefit from more power during track days. :smiley:

Offline pudding

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2016, 04:25:39 pm »
I can't say I am experiencing any negative effects running a Revo Intake, I am a big fan of running the OE Airbox and have done on previous cars but on the Golf R I plan on going beyond Stage 1 and so the Airbox has had to go.

I saw an Audi S3 8P in at R-Tech recently for a Stage 2 Map, Hardware wise it had a Full BCS Turbo Back Exhaust but was running the stock Airbox. It made 317BHP & 332LB/FT.

Another S3, Similar car but Stage 1 with the Pre-Cat removed and running a Revo Intake....330BHP & 338LB/FT.

Niki said that the Hardware was holding the Stage 2 powered car back, It should have been around the 340BHP mark.

I know they are different cars and not all cars perform the same.

If I could have got away with keeping the stock airbox and going Stage 2 or 2+ then I would have but it will become a Major restriction at those levels.

Is the airbox bad on the Golf R then?  I've seen a few videos on shopdap.com of various MK7 upgrades and they look pretty decent!

Tbh, that is just one tuners findings and it kind of puts into debate as to whether or not a full 3" TBE is worth it if S3 #1 made less power than S3 #2 with a factory exhaust  :smiley:   And our resident Mr Shoduchi has 340hp from the factory airbox  :smiley:   And let's not forget, the difference between S3 #1 and S3 #2 is only about 5%.   There would be no difference on the road between the 2 cars, but some people do rather get hung up on the peak hp numbers  :smiley: 

Did the Stage 2 car have a Loba pump and what boost pressure is R-Tech Stage 2? Is the S3 airbox the same as the Golf one?  I can't see it holding back the power that much.  Something else is required on that car I'd say, but interesting info all the same!

I'd love put Racingline's intake claim of +25hp to the test on my car, but it's a £450 experiment I can't afford at the moment!

Peak numbers are of no relevance to me whatsover, It is all about how the car drives on the road. Also I would rather fit an item of Hardware even if its not required but aids flow or fuelling and gives more headroom/safety when tuning.

The Airbox on the MK6 Golf R is the same item fitted to just about all of the TFSI range, I am not a Tuner, I don't do any mapping so I cannot gather any real data and ascertain at what point the Stock Airbox becomes a restriction! Has anyone actually fitted Stage 2+ Hardware minus the Intake on a K04 powered car and done back to back Rolling Road testing?

I can only go off....

1. Rolling Road figures I see on a day to day basis at various Tuners at given Stage's and for given Hardware, Obviously I know that in an ideal world 3 cars with all the same hardware and same software should make the same numbers but in reality each car is different. Also that a car with less Hardware can make similar if not more than a car with a full shopping list of parts fitted.

You have to also factor that just because a car can make a certain amount of Power/Torque with Stock hardware fitted does not mean it is an optimum set-up and ideal long term or when driven hard.

2. By going on various tuners websites and looking at what hardware they recommend based on their many hours of R&D when developing their Software.

Findings below are based on my own car, MK6 Golf R K04....

APR's website...

APR’s Stage I ECU Upgrade is designed for vehicles with little to no modification. Expect higher peak numbers of 310 horsepower and 311 ft-lbs of torque, but also gains of up to +57 horsepower and +58 ft-lbs through the power band.

When running the intake specific software with a full high flow intake, more gains can be had. Expect higher peak numbers of 337 horsepower and 309 ft-lbs of torque, but also gains of up to +72 horsepower and +61 ft-lbs through the power band.


Revo...

Stage 2 Performance Software has been specifically developed to attain the best possible performance from the 2.0TFSI K04 with a bolt on performance exhaust and quality cold air intake. Stage 2 software is boost, fuelling and timing adjustable with slightly more flexibility than Stage 1 allowing the vehicle to be setup to suit the fuel quality, driving conditions and driver preferences. 2.0TFSI K04 Stage 2 software is specifically tuned to suit the limitations of the standard high pressure fuel pump limiting the mid-range and giving a fantastic linear power delivery.

GIAC...

Recommend an Intake at Stage 1.

R-Tech...

BYD – BWJ – BHZ – CDL Engines

MIN Requirements for STAGE 2 POWER R-Tech remap session.

Full High Flow Exhaust, Sports cat or Decat Exhaust System, High Flow Cold Air Induction Kit, 5w 40 Oil, Vpower – Tesco 99 or any 98+ Ron Fuel


All tuners pretty much singing the same song that an Intake is required on a K04 powered car when going beyond Stage 1.

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs by the way!

At Stage 1 which is circa 300BHP give or take and depending on the Software and how healthy the car is then the Stock Airbox is fine, It has also been shown by others such as Shoduchi that it can go beyond that on a K04 powered car and that is great. I have made 315BHP on my last ED30 with a Pre-Cat Delete and the Stock Airbox with a Panel Filter, It is doubtful I would have gianed much by fitting an Intake at this level.

However with my current car I intend on going further with Tuning and Stage 2 is going to be the minimum which is circa 340BHP & 340LB/FT of Torque with an R-Tech Map going on what other cars have made recently so I wanted to ensure I have the best flowing set up possible. Hence why I fitted a Revo Intake.

If the Stock Airbox could support 400BHP comfortably I would without a doubt retain it and would never fit an Intake, However I don't want to be a Guinea Pig and turn up on the day with only half the recommend Hardware fitted expecting the car to make the numbers.

So I fit what my tuner recommends for the given stage of tune I am aiming for  :happy2:

Ah OK, you've got the 6R!

Maybe we should take the MAF readings before and after the fitment of an intake!   I'll be running my TTE420 with the standard airbox  :grin:   Well, to begin with at least!  I like doing tuning one thing at a time and to see what the differences are  :smiley:


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Offline bonelorry

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2016, 03:54:56 pm »
Ah OK, you've got the 6R!

Maybe we should take the MAF readings before and after the fitment of an intake!   I'll be running my TTE420 with the standard airbox  :grin:   Well, to begin with at least!  I like doing tuning one thing at a time and to see what the differences are  :smiley:

Yes the 6R, I think the VWR kit is probably one of the best available and if my Revo ever gets annoying then I would consider going for the VWR one. From what I have read the Revo is a very good Intake with decent MAF scaling.

Not sure who does your mapping but I doubt they will be happy going for 400BHP on the Stock Airbox, Unless you are just going to run the turbo as it is and then map the car once you have fitted an aftermarket Intake?

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2016, 10:24:26 am »
Ah OK, you've got the 6R!

Maybe we should take the MAF readings before and after the fitment of an intake!   I'll be running my TTE420 with the standard airbox  :grin:   Well, to begin with at least!  I like doing tuning one thing at a time and to see what the differences are  :smiley:

Yes the 6R, I think the VWR kit is probably one of the best available and if my Revo ever gets annoying then I would consider going for the VWR one. From what I have read the Revo is a very good Intake with decent MAF scaling.

Not sure who does your mapping but I doubt they will be happy going for 400BHP on the Stock Airbox, Unless you are just going to run the turbo as it is and then map the car once you have fitted an aftermarket Intake?

Yeah the Revo is well liked with tuners as it frees off the top end a bit.  Open intakes just aren't my bag though.  Too noisy.

I'm not aiming for 400hp.  350ish initially, just to get it installed and running reliably.  Then I will look into the Wavetrac diff and intake.  By that time I reckon VWR's own remaps will be available, which I might look into. 


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Offline bonelorry

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2016, 07:28:49 pm »
Ah OK, you've got the 6R!

Maybe we should take the MAF readings before and after the fitment of an intake!   I'll be running my TTE420 with the standard airbox  :grin:   Well, to begin with at least!  I like doing tuning one thing at a time and to see what the differences are  :smiley:

Yes the 6R, I think the VWR kit is probably one of the best available and if my Revo ever gets annoying then I would consider going for the VWR one. From what I have read the Revo is a very good Intake with decent MAF scaling.

Not sure who does your mapping but I doubt they will be happy going for 400BHP on the Stock Airbox, Unless you are just going to run the turbo as it is and then map the car once you have fitted an aftermarket Intake?

Yeah the Revo is well liked with tuners as it frees off the top end a bit.  Open intakes just aren't my bag though.  Too noisy.

I'm not aiming for 400hp.  350ish initially, just to get it installed and running reliably.  Then I will look into the Wavetrac diff and intake.  By that time I reckon VWR's own remaps will be available, which I might look into.

I am pressuming you are in the U.K?

Ifso then I would highly recommend  R-Tech, Niki has mapped many TTE420 Cars with fantastic results  :happy2:

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2016, 03:26:50 pm »
Yeah I'm in the UK!

I already have a custom dyno map, so will probably just get it tweaked accordingly  :smiley:

VWR's own ECU remaps sound intriguing though, but will probably be around £1000 I reckon!


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Offline bonelorry

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2016, 05:05:38 pm »
Yeah I'm in the UK!

I already have a custom dyno map, so will probably just get it tweaked accordingly  :smiley:

VWR's own ECU remaps sound intriguing though, but will probably be around £1000 I reckon!

Custom Dyno map by whom?

The VWR Maps/Software will almost certainly be written by one of the well known tuning companies! Probably Revo or the likes.

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2016, 05:06:14 pm »
Yeah I'm in the UK!

I already have a custom dyno map, so will probably just get it tweaked accordingly  :smiley:

VWR's own ECU remaps sound intriguing though, but will probably be around £1000 I reckon!
I saw that on the VWR website recently. Made me wonder who's doing these maps. As in VWR are well known for 'procuring' a product and sticking VWR tax on it.

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2016, 05:07:07 pm »
And.... Bonelorry beat me to it!

Offline bonelorry

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2016, 07:38:13 pm »
And.... Bonelorry beat me to it!

I actully enquired about an Edition 30 ealier this Year which had a Volkswagen Racing Remap fitted and a Volkswagen Racing Exhaust.

Map was unknown but the Exhaust was a Cat-Back Milltek.

The VWR Panel Filter is made by ITG, Not sure about the VWR Intake though?

Thread regarding the maps from 2011...

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26954.0.html

Not knocking VWR products, Rate them highly but obviously Software wise i am very particular about what I use!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 07:47:08 pm by bonelorry »

Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2016, 07:52:45 pm »
And.... Bonelorry beat me to it!

I actully enquired about an Edition 30 ealier this Year which had a Volkswagen Racing Remap fitted and a Volkswagen Racing Exhaust.

Map was unknown but the Exhaust was a Cat-Back Milltek.

The VWR Panel Filter is made by ITG, Not sure about the VWR Intake though?

Thread regarding the maps from 2011...

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26954.0.html

Not knocking VWR products, Rate them highly but obviously Software wise i am very particular about what I use!

The closed cone intake is also made by ITG but with different pipe work:



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Re: Intake waste of money?
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2016, 08:06:30 pm »

The closed cone intake is also made by ITG but with different pipe work:



Also available with the less jointed pipework too....

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=98172.0