Stage 1 results and mods questions..

[Norfolk Ollie]

Hi there, I had a stage 1 done on my bog standard (or so I thought) MK5 GTI a few weeks back.
I must say I was really impressed with the guys I spoke to there and they clearly know their stuff!
I made them aware that I thought my DV was shot as I was experiencing loss of power and a hissing on acceleration but it wasn't a problem as they had them in stock so put it on the ramp and checked it. Yep as suspected the revision B DV was shagged so they changed it for a rev G. Great I thought- now let the fun begin..
I was then asked over to the car and it was pointed out to me that the car had a cheap aftermarket cat fitted which will be restricting flow no end and would limit the power outcome after the map.. Bugger!    Thinking that was bad news I was then informed that the engine sounded rather rattly, which could be a VVT issue.   
I was then told that AKS tuning would be the only place they'd recommend to carry out the work- sounds expensive! 
Re map day was turning into sh*t your pants day as the potential cost of this swirled around in my head.
Anyhow it went on the rollers and produced figures of 191 bhp, 232 lb torque before and 231 bhp and 277 lb torque after. The cat was indicated as the reason and I later noticed that the car previously failed an Mot because of the cat 'desintergrating'. They obviously just had a cheap one stuck on then sold the car.
I took the car up the road and it made me grin like an idiot! The difference was unbelievable- if they'd told me it was 250bhp, etc then I would have believed them! I asked them if I'd need a map tweak after getting the cat and cam chain issue sorted but they said it wasn't necessary. Hats off to Ben who then went to the trouble of calling AKS and arranged for me to call in on the way back to East Anglia for them to have a look, which I did and a cam chain tensioner service was advised and booked in for October. I was also advised to get the oil changed and the sump cleaned out as there was a lot of carbon gunk visible in the oil filler cap opening and do a pick up pipe service too. I'm also getting them to put an oem cat and DP fitted with the pre cat deleted. I'm hoping that this will help things flow better but I'm now wondering about the other options available. Overall I'm really pleased with R-tech and with what they have done with my car!
If any of you can help with these questions then I'd be really grateful thanks..

1- I'm assuming the ECU will adapt to the new cat and DP but what sort of bhp and torque am i looking at getting after these done? Will it bump the car's power up to where it should have been been if they'd been on when it was mapped, i.e 240-250BHP or did that cheap cat compromise the cars potential on the rollers?
2- Is it worth getting a loba hpfp fitted while I'm there? I have enquired about this but haven't received a response. I could get a performance DP and sports cat done too but cost is a factor.  If you had to choose between a sports cat/DP or a hpfp which would you go for?
3- Would I need an up rated clutch or would an oem one handle things ok, if I went stage 1+-2, when the time comes to change?

Thanks for any help on these guys- cheers, Ollie.

[AJP]

You should gain some extra power, yes. If the crap cat isn't flowing very well then an oem cat and especially precat delete will aid flow nicely. I'm not sure whether you'd then be reaching the exact same power as if you'd got the map done with an oem cat and precat delete - it could be that Niki dialled back the boost slightly in comparison to one of their usual Stage 1 maps because of the fact your exhaust flow was restricted and high EGTs are not desirable. That said, there is a degree of 'learning' with the ECU, and the extra flow will help bring EGTs down at the very least. 231bhp isn't actually that much down on power anyway, mine made low 240s stock with R-Tech Stage 1.

An uprated fuel pump is a great mod. To get the best out of it you'd want your map tweaking, to what I think R-Tech call 1+. Considering you'd also be adding a precat delete into the mix, you should see good gains over your current power and torque with a Stage 1+ map. Give Ben a ring and double check on pricing - I think going from 1 to 1+ qualifies as a tweak and as such doesn't cost as much as actually moving stages (as I found out going from Stage 1 to Stage 2).

As for the clutch, there's no way of knowing. Mine started slipping once I got up past 320lb/ft, but yours might be ok. Bear in mind, whether you go for the oem cat and precat delete with uprated pump (Stage 1+) or 3" downpipe and sport cat with standard pump (Stage 2), you're still looking at a hefty torque increase. If your clutch is currently coping but just on its limit, it could be that whatever route you next take with tuning pushes it over the edge.

It's probably a good idea to decide your ultimate goal power wise. That way you can think about budgeting for an uprated clutch if you think you'll need it, and doing things in the right order. If you're keen on Stage 2 and beyond it wouldn't make sense to buy an oem cat as you'd need to get rid of it to make way for a proper 3" downpipe. But if you think you'll be happy with about 260bhp and loads of low down torque, go for the oem cat with precat delete, fit an uprated pump, and then get the map tweaked (keeping your fingers crossed that your clutch holds up).

[Norfolk Ollie]

Cheers for that comprehensive reply AJP 
that answered my questions perfectly! 
Do you know much is it to go up a stage fella? I think I read that a tweak is around £90?

[AJP]

No probs. From memory it was either £150 or £200 for me to go from Stage 1 to Stage 2, I can't remember. I was expecting it to be £90 as I assumed it was deemed a tweak regardless of what stage you went to. I assumed wrong!

[Norfolk Ollie]

No probs. From memory it was either £150 or £200 for me to go from Stage 1 to Stage 2, I can't remember. I was expecting it to be £90 as I assumed it was deemed a tweak regardless of what stage you went to. I assumed wrong!

Cheers again 
Do you reckon they put it on the rollers again for a tweak? I know it's not all bout 'figures' but I'd be really curious to know what power my car's got after. That's what pi*$ed me off about the cheap cat this time round.. 

[AJP]

Yeah it'll definitely go back on the rollers and you'll get a graph printout, whether it's a tweak or you're jumping stages.

What route do you think you'll take with the tuning then?

[Norfolk Ollie]

It's a family car that the wife uses more than I do, especially the school run so I'd like to stick at stage 1+ really.
That will be enough for me having a blast of an evening or weekend! Tbh, she wouldn't appreciate a fully kitted out stage 2+ with full performance exhaust, etc! 
There's a lot of talk about a pipercross filter upgrade not being worth it as it doesn't filter so well but what are your thoughts regarding this if I go stage 1+?
Cheers 

[AJP]

I've got a Pipercross panel and it works fine at 270bhp. I doubt it's massively better or worse than an oem filter to be honest.

1+ is a good choice. If you're running 277lbft now you're REALLY going to feel the extra torque!

[Norfolk Ollie]

Haha that's what I'm hoping! just hope the clutch doesn't feel it too..
So you reckon 260bhp (ish) what torque.. 300+?

[AJP]

Yeah, somewhere in the 260bhp area, and I'd say closer to 350lb/ft.

You only really achieve the higher bhp figures with more flow, ie mods like a 3" downpipe and an intake kit.

Torque wise, k03 cars make peak at around 3000-3500rpm, right where fuel demand is at its highest which is why an uprated pump can make such a massive difference to torque.

Mine made just shy of 300lbft and 242bhp Stage 1, everything standard. I'd expect you can add a fair bit onto those figures, especially with the pump.

The ideal setup is 2+, where flow is maximised with a big downpipe, intake and better flowing intercooler, and fuel demands are also taken care of with an uprated pump. Then Niki can ask the max of the turbo, and he achieves some really impressive results.

Just a thought though...

What are you going to be spending for the oem cat and downpipe? Are you pricing it up as new? Because you can probably get a 3" downpipe and good sport cat for the same price, if not a tiny bit more. And joined up to your oem cat back it wouldn't be too loud. Could quite possibly be wife friendly, and of course you'd then be looking at even bigger gains along with an uprated pump....

[Norfolk Ollie]

Holy moly 350 lb torque.. 
That sounds mental! I've been quoted £50 for a second hand oem dp/sc unit plus fitting, so a lot cheaper than a performance set up. How much 'throatier' is a performance dp? I've been toying with the idea but £500 is a cost, especially if it pi*$es the wife off!

[AJP]

Holy moly 350 lb torque.. 
That sounds mental! I've been quoted £50 for a second hand oem dp/sc unit plus fitting, so a lot cheaper than a performance set up. How much 'throatier' is a performance dp? I've been toying with the idea but £500 is a cost, especially if it pi*$es the wife off!

I can't say for sure (I went from stock system to a full Powervalve) but I'd imagine it'd be marginally louder and deeper if you fit it with the stock cat back. A precat delete will also be a bit louder and deeper than stock, but maybe to a lesser extent. Problem with the stock dp, precat delete or not, is that it's puny, maybe not even 2.5". That is fine if you never want more than 1+ kind of peak power.

To be honest, you can't go wrong at 50 quid if you're staying at 260ish bhp. But (two buts)... you're fitting a second hand part, so there's inherent risk there. And if you think you might get the tuning bug and want more in the future, the time to fit a bigger downpipe is now.

Just to make your decision even harder, my full Powervalve (95% of its gains coming from the dp and cat) and subsequent R-Tech map, netted me 345lb/ft. Thats before I'd even fitted an uprated pump. Only other mod was the Pipercross (add maybe 5lb/ft for that if you want!) You can buy the Powervalve dp and cat to mate to your oem cat back.

Boils down to your end goal and budget. Make your big decisions now. Welcome to the top of the slippery slope!

[Norfolk Ollie]

Haha yes the slippppppppppppppppppppppppppppery slope!
If noise and cost wasn't a factor then I'd get a dp no worries. I'm getting the oem dp off AKS tuning and they're fitting it so I feel very confident in their hands.
It's funny- I was watching a top gear from 10 or so years ago and they had the astra vxr, megane sport and mk5 gti on there and he calls it the 'chaos theory' that the vxr has 240 ish bhp is going through the front wheels! I guess the mk5 can handle it better than the astra as I haven't seen many posts on here about torque steer issues..

Sure you've seen it but..

[AJP]

Haha, yeah I'm sure I watched that one. A mate of mine had a VXR and it was certainly nippy. Really don't get much torque steer with the mk5, you're right. Maybe on the very rare occasion when mine grips in 2nd it'll pull a bit, but nothing major. I tend not to floor it unless I'm at least in 3rd anyway.

Things have moved on a bit though haven't they. My memory's terrible, but I'm guessing it was the mk2 Focus RS that really kicked things off again. Don't think there was anything else putting out 300bhp in terms of front drive hot hatches around then?

One thing though, as much as the headline-grabbing stock bhp figures make good reading, standard cars are mapped really tentatively when it comes to torque. So you get stock cars with 300bhp/300lbft, but then tuned 'lesser' cars with 280bhp/360lbft... I know which I'd prefer!

You'll be looking at a peak of 335-350lbft with the precat delete, pump and map. Although it is literally a peak (the k03 can't sustain it up at 5k and beyond), look up the torque figures for a stock VXR, which on paper is not much less 'powerful'.

[Norfolk Ollie]

Very true! Thanks for your help with this fella- if I think of anything else then I'll add to the post. Cheers again!
Ollie.