Morego suspension tweaks

[Janner_Sy]

the thread is interesting and has alot of valid points, but i have found from personal experience having the front bar stiffer on my car has had detrimental effects.

on one of the trips to the nurburgring i set up the car with the rear bar on it softest setting and the front bar on stiffest setting. I found that the car understeered alot more than standard setup. the difference between the tw extremes of setups was huge.

I found the most neutral setup on my car was with both bars on their stiffest settings,  but the crispest turn in was with the front on soft, and rear on stiff. it has since staid as that, and as been complemented with the whieline anti lift kit.

its worth noting though that my vRS has alot more weight over the rear axle than the other Vag cars.

when did you fit your arbs and morego lower arms. was it the same time.  

[laurent.d]

I fitted the ARB after Morego's wishbones.

Yes of course, if you set your ARB kit hard front and soft rear you'll get understeer biased car.
But it doesn't mean that the bigger is the rear ARB the better it is.

If it works around the balance point it doens not mean it still does at the extreme.

Sorry, it's very hard to make me clear in english.

[Janner_Sy]

If you set your ARB kit hard front and soft rear you'll get understeer biased car.
But it doesn't mean that the bigger is the rear ARB the better it is.

I havent mentioned that the bigger the rear bar the better it is. if that was the case id have the neuspeed 28mm bar on the rear, i plan on increasing the rear but not to something hugely stiffer.

I agree when getting ARBs its all about balance , and what i was trying to get at was reference to the 28mm front ARB being such a large increase over the standard size one. and that it seemed a bit out of proportion to the rear bar.  As tonydana said having massively stiff ARBs can cause excessive weight transfer on the axle, and having such a stiff car will remove the independance of the suspension.

saying that though, you will have greatly reduced body roll, and with the camber you wil have the understeer under control. Just seems to me a little like one is counter acting the effects of each other.

[tony_danza]

But it doesn't mean that the bigger is the rear ARB the better it is.

Sorry, it's very hard to make me clear in english.

I think I know what is causing confusion here.

When we're talking about the theory, it is assumed it is a non-adjustable ARB. So bigger rear, smaller front for FWD.

When we're talking about our cars, we say "bigger" because we have adjustable ARBs, what we mean is making the ARB bigger by changing its settings (soft/medium/hard), not the actual size in mm.  Does that make sense?

With a H&R kit - if you set the front soft and the rear med, it makes the bars effectively the same size. If you set the front soft and the rear hard, it makes the rear bar bigger. You see?

I have a slightly different set up to you all, I have 25mm hollow ARBs front and rear. When set on both the same, because the rear is larger than say a H&R kit, it makes my car perfectly neutral. So to get oversteer, I have F-med/R-hard.

Now because you have more front camber, you can apply the same kind of logic. The camber reduces the understeer effect, so you don't have to set the ARBs as aggressively as VRSY. You could run F-med/R-hard on a 26F/24R and I'd be willing to say the car will feel better than it does now. A 28mm ARB is far too stiff for a road car, it will make it too snappy in the wet and jump around on uneven surfaces. I'd soften your ARBs and get the coilovers set up to get back what you think you've lost in stiffness, you must let them do all the work instead. Cornerweighting will massively improve the balance of the car too.

Ottis' set up is different because he has got physically bigger-mm rear, so along with the wishbones he has a lot of oversteer potential, but I don't think it is making the car any worse for not having a stiffer front. depends how low/stiff he is coilover wise?

I can't read the review, the website is offline. I'll try later. However, I will add if it has been written by an American then I'm inclined to not take it as the final word on ARBs. They think everything is better bigger.

I'm not trying to tell you what you have is wrong, if it works for you then that's good   everyone has a different idea of a good handling car. But everything I have researched based on MK5 GTI race cars and discussions with a chassis engineer for a major race team agrees with the general theory advice VRSY and I have given.

I've done 8 days at the Nurburgring and 9 track days in the last year, so I do actually practice what I say too.

[john_o]

way over my head but love the info guys 

Im confused though. So far I have the stats as

std arms         = -1 deg
TT arms          = -1.5 deg
Morego arms  = -2 deg?

conventional wisdom has the morego arms as running too much neg camber that means excessive wear.
So how as the original poster managed so many miles without issue?

Have I missed something ? or have morego reduced the amount of camber they are putting into their arms?
or is there some other factor?
I take it for a road biased car being used daily for reasonable tyre mileage but with a nod to improved handling , -1.5 is the max?


on a side note , are welded arms uk MOT compliant ?

[Janner_Sy]

The morego arms were producing 1.75 egrees negative camber

http://www.morego.co.uk/road_tests_item.php?road-test=9

[tony_danza]

When I spoke to Morego way before the WALK, say about 18 months ago, I'm 99% sure they said were dialling it back.

Tyre wear, if you're scrubbing them on the track, you won't notice. If you're rolling up and down the motorway all week, you'll do the inside edges in. It's all down to usage.

[john_o]

thnks guys , sounds like they have dropped it back a bit 
I can see no reason to fit them over the OE TT arms tbh 

[RedRobin]

I can see no reason to fit them over the OE TT arms tbh 

....x 2

Ok for a car which does mostly track and just a bit of road (road legal track car?) but not for a car used principally for road and occasional track days. As I posted earlier, my friend had excessive tyre wear with the Morego's although that was some time ago and their first version IIRC.

[Janner_Sy]

i think john_o has a really valid point

will the welded arms be valid from an MOT inspectors point of view. 


as for morego dialing the camber back as well, i dont hink thyey have, that review link i posted up was from 2007. and it was 1.75 degrees then

[laurent.d]

So, about Morego's wishbones, as it is the subject of this topic:

Morego claims 1.75° of negative camber on a stock car with standard suspension setup.
As you lower the car, you get negative camber due to the suspension geometry.
My car is lowered of about 30mm, so I got 2.1° of negative camber.

I don't have any tyre wear issue. I drive 80% on hight way, 20% on back road for fast drive and 27 laps around the Nürburgring.

Believe me or not but I even wear slightly more the outer of the tyre. Pirelli PZERO MO

My advice is to forget about the ugly, expensive yet very efficient Morego welded arms to TT lower arms.
And if you want more camber you can still get adjustable top mounts.

About sway bars, here we go again...

First point I already mentioned is the sway bars size or stiffness depend of car architecture.
And then you can need a (slightly) stiffer bar at the front to have a balanced car.

 
I’m going to give you an example:

Lotus Exige S... it only gets a front sway bar, nothing at the rear. And it doesn’t understeer that much…
Yes I know, you must hate me know. 

But that said, we can't really compare our setup.
These bars come from different factory, yours are alloy and mine are plain.
We don't know the lever size of each one.
So maybe your F25 Medium/R25 Hard is the same stiffness and balance than H&R F26 Soft/R22 Hard!!??


All I can say and what the review says, is:

1/Rear 22mm H&R only => understeer yet it sound surprising. Because front is too soft.
2/H&R F26mm soft/R22mm Hard => well balanced, throttle adjustable, fun and great for road use.
3/H&R F28mm soft/R24mm Hard =>very sharp, well balanced, slightly under- steer biased chassis, adjustable, good for road/track use.

My setup:

-2° front camber, H&R F28mm soft/R24mm Hard: Very sharp, amazing on fast road and on track. Very neutral and adjustable.

I tried H&R F28mm Hard/R24mm Hard it was not that bad, may be a beginning of slight understeer.

[Janner_Sy]

Lotus Exige S... it only gets a front sway bar, nothing at the rear. And it doesn’t understeer that much…
Yes I know, you must hate me know.

that has to be one of the worst comparisons  

extremely light weight car, extremely low centre of gravity, extremly stiff chassis, exremely stiff race suspension and most importantly rear wheel drive. not really comparable to the mk5 chassis.

-2° front camber, H&R F28mm soft/R24mm Hard: Very sharp, amazing on fast road and on track. Very neutral and adjustable

id agree with that, but id wager alot of that is down to the camber  

what i do agree with though is that its hard to compare ARBs unless you know how much stiffer than the standard ARBs are they are in comparison to each other

[tony_danza]

Laurent.d. If your car does what you want it to, doesn't eat tyres and and you're happy - then everything is achieved. I don't want to go around in circles and appear like I'm arguing with you, I'm not.

It is yours and the American's opinion on what ARBs work, and I completely agree that different makes have different tensile strength. You can't compare anything but the same, that's why I only every quoted theory. It differs from the opinion of me, VRSY, known MK5 racing cars set up here in the UK and the opinion of the chassis engineer I know.... it doesn't make either opinion right, it just means you choose what you prefer based upon the information available.

The Morego arms, they were developed in a time where TT/S3 arms didn't exist in the tuning world. They work, they may have compromises and we know a better alternative now. I wouldn't change them if I had them and were otherwise happy. But I wouldn't buy them over TT arms. We agree there.

Lets call it a day there.

Oh, you can't compare a spaceframed, mid-engined lightweight sportscar with double wishbone suspension to a FWD twice the height & weight car on McPherson struts and multilink rear.. That's insane!

[laurent.d]

Lotus Exige S... it only gets a front sway bar, nothing at the rear. And it doesn’t understeer that much…
Yes I know, you must hate me know.

that has to be one of the worst comparisons  

Yes, it's not very fair, I took this spécific exemple as a provocation to tease you.

@Tony_danza

No prob , I take it easy, we just having a topic discution is not matter about life or death.


I don't think we really disagree.

I had the same point of view than you have now, before I get my sway bar kit.
At the workshop I bought the kit (they are suspension spécialiste) they told me according to racing drivers that it was better to have a bigger front sway bar.
But they also told me that feeling about understeer or oversteering biased car also depende on the driver.

And I have to say that my setup works very well.

But to go on your side, I'm sure that replace my 28 FARB with a 26 FARB would give me a more oversteering biased car.

So I see only one solution, we have to meet at the Nürburgring to see which setup is the fastest.

[tony_danza]

I don't think we disagree either, our theory is the same, I just don't think such a large bars are a good idea for a road car.

I am at the 'Ring from the 20th-26th of May.

If you are too, then we can jump in each other's passenger seats and see how they work