Make a donation

Author Topic: Torque lbsft.  (Read 2969 times)

Offline s3dubbin

  • Won't Shut up.
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 18
  • Posts: 870
    • Email
Torque lbsft.
« on: December 28, 2016, 07:49:33 pm »
What part of the tuning puzzle creates the torque? I understand it's to do with the whole package but is it the turbo, the fuelling or the size of turbo or the mapping?

Reason I'm asking is my car just done 550hp/400lbsft, this seems crazy figures. Some people out there claim that torque with stage2+ lol. Really don't want to open the rolling road lottery topic again just wondering how the tuners up the torque?

Cheers, Stevie.

Offline AJP

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 392
  • -Receive: 316
  • Posts: 3212
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2016, 08:40:27 pm »
Torque is turning force. As in the turning force of the crank.

Power is torque x speed. Revs is speed.

You can have an engine that has a peak torque of 200lb/ft but peak power of 300bhp, due to it being able to rev to 9k. Think naturally aspirated, oldskool F1, Vtec, superbikes etc.

You can also have an engine that has a peak torque of 400lb/ft but also peak power of 300bhp. The torque produced means that the engine only needs to rev to say 5k to produce 300bhp. Think turbocharged.

Power is a product of torque and engine speed.

Turbocharged cars produce more torque, much earlier in the revs, than a naturally aspirated engine. Forcing the air in (turbocharged), creates a completely different torque curve to a naturally aspirated engine.

Those are the absolute basics.

I'm not entirely sure of your question, but if you're asking why two turbocharged cars with the same peak torque can have such different peak power, it's down to boost. Boost increases the turning force of the crank; boost can be equated to torque.

A small turbo like a k03 can spool quickly but essentially runs out of boost by 4-5k. Boost will peak early, but then drop quickly.

A bigger turbo like a k04 will spool a little later in the rev range but has the ability to sustain that boost up to much higher revs.

So, remembering the 'power = torque x speed' equation, if the small turbo makes sod all boost at 5k, and the big turbo makes lots of boost at 5k, you can say the small turbo makes low torque at high revs, and the big turbo makes high torque at high revs. Therefore, the big turbo car has more power at high revs, ie peak power. This is why you'll see a 2+ k03 car making the same peak torque as a 2+ k04 car, yet the k04 car makes 70bhp more peak power.

It's all about the torque curve, rather than the torque peak.

Try and find some graphs of 2+ k03 cars and compare them to the graphs of 2+ k04 cars. Pretty similar torque curve up to about 4k, but then the k04 keeps boosting where the k03 starts to give up.

So yes, your big turbo car making 550bhp and 400lb/ft makes the same PEAK torque as some 2+ k04 cars. But peak torque means bugger all. Your car will hold that torque (boost) all the way up to 6k. Same analogy as k03 vs k04.

Upping the torque as you put it isn't simply a case of turning up the boost. All the hardware has to be able to facilitate it, and the map has to deliver it safely and properly. So you're right in saying it's the whole package that determines it.

Hope that answers it.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 08:42:40 pm by AJP »

Offline s3dubbin

  • Won't Shut up.
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 18
  • Posts: 870
    • Email
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2016, 09:55:32 pm »
Thanks very much for taking the time to reply in such detail. I will prob need to read it a few times. I think I get it. Basically my fueling is at max so if I can produce more fuel I will be able to run more than 2bar therefore increasing the torque. I am holding 400lbsft right through til 7600rpm before it drops so I get what you are saying about the smaller turbo running out of puff. Made me slightly happier now thinking about peak torque and how long it's holding it.

Cheers, Stevie.

Offline unzippy

  • Always Involved
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 4
  • -Receive: 13
  • Posts: 153
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2016, 10:07:04 pm »
Area under the graph line, more is better ;)

Offline AJP

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 392
  • -Receive: 316
  • Posts: 3212
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2016, 10:11:50 pm »
Thanks very much for taking the time to reply in such detail. I will prob need to read it a few times. I think I get it. Basically my fueling is at max so if I can produce more fuel I will be able to run more than 2bar therefore increasing the torque. I am holding 400lbsft right through til 7600rpm before it drops so I get what you are saying about the smaller turbo running out of puff. Made me slightly happier now thinking about peak torque and how long it's holding it.

Cheers, Stevie.
No probs mate.

Chasing numbers seems a case of identifying the current bottleneck, sorting it, at which point something else becomes the new bottleneck, and so on. It can become a bit of a never ending game.

All good fun, but there's a good case for a setup where your hardware has lots of headroom over your software rather than continually finding the limits of each component, to then have to upgrade again and again.

It's easier said than done, but deciding on a power level before you set out modding, and then sticking to it, is ideal. But admittedly it's not much fun. There's something addictive about evolving a car through different states of tune. I wouldn't want to add up the money I've spent on hardware or maps that were only ever going to get upgraded/updated a bit further down the road!

Regarding your peak torque, your mapper could probably get a bigger peak figure if you really wanted. But it wouldn't necessarily make it a faster car or a nicer car to drive - keeping the boost modest at mid rpm (where you'd typically see peak torque) means the turbo can still deliver boost at high rpm. And you'd rather have for example 20psi at 6k, than a few more pounds of boost at mid revs and 16psi at 6k. It's all a bit of a trade off.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 10:21:09 pm by AJP »

Offline rich83

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 165
  • -Receive: 802
  • Posts: 13444
    • MK5 Golf GTI
  • My Ride: https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=58t4bc2p4fmlueajs8agadpe1h&/topic,19740.0.html
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2016, 10:13:31 pm »

@AJP slightly misquoting the relationship... this is the formula.

BHP =  ( torque x RPM ) /5252
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 10:15:52 pm by rich83 »

Offline AJP

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 392
  • -Receive: 316
  • Posts: 3212
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2016, 10:22:21 pm »

@AJP slightly misquoting the relationship... this is the formula.

BHP =  ( torque x RPM ) /5252
I know Rich, but I wanted to keep it simple. It's essentially the same principle.

Offline rich83

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 165
  • -Receive: 802
  • Posts: 13444
    • MK5 Golf GTI
  • My Ride: https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=58t4bc2p4fmlueajs8agadpe1h&/topic,19740.0.html
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2016, 10:24:48 pm »
 :thinking:


Offline s3dubbin

  • Won't Shut up.
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 18
  • Posts: 870
    • Email
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2016, 10:31:28 pm »
I will stop at 550hp/500lbsft. Not sure if that is achievable with Giac and don't want to go custom mapping so will do a bit of digging and look into it. I know Revo won't write a map higher than 135bar so definitely need to move on from Revo at some point.

Cheers, Stevie.

Offline AJP

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 392
  • -Receive: 316
  • Posts: 3212
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2016, 10:40:46 pm »
:thinking:
/5252 is used to apply the correct ratio to the equation in order to state a value in bhp or lb/ft specifically. It's just for the units - an appendage to the main equation.

Power is a product of torque and speed.

Power = (torque x speed) is correct.

BHP = (lb/ft x rpm) /5252 is correct.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 11:28:54 pm by AJP »

Offline AJP

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 392
  • -Receive: 316
  • Posts: 3212
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2016, 10:41:59 pm »
I will stop at 550hp/500lbsft. Not sure if that is achievable with Giac and don't want to go custom mapping so will do a bit of digging and look into it. I know Revo won't write a map higher than 135bar so definitely need to move on from Revo at some point.

Cheers, Stevie.
Best of luck with it mate. Sounds good. Do you have a build thread?

Offline s3dubbin

  • Won't Shut up.
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 18
  • Posts: 870
    • Email
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2016, 10:38:24 am »
My build thread is on here somewhere but hasn't been updated for 2yrs. Quite a bit has changed with the Ferrea head rebuild, water meth, dark-side developments gearbox internals, clutchmasters fx850 clutch prob some more but can't think what else.

Cheers, Stevie.

Offline vRSAlex

  • Admin
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 39
  • -Receive: 253
  • Posts: 2761
    • Email
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19941.0.html
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2016, 11:22:07 am »
I will stop at 550hp/500lbsft. Not sure if that is achievable with Giac and don't want to go custom mapping so will do a bit of digging and look into it. I know Revo won't write a map higher than 135bar so definitely need to move on from Revo at some point.

Cheers, Stevie.

Why don't you want to go custom?  It will get the best from the hardware setup.
www.akstuning.co.uk - info@akstuning.com - 01234 822324
Follow AKS tuning on Facebook

Offline s3dubbin

  • Won't Shut up.
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 18
  • Posts: 870
    • Email
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2016, 11:42:49 am »
Probably because I don't know enough about it and also they want to change so much of my already built setup before they start. I have looked into it Alex but they don't want rs4 injectors, my eboost2 controller and want me to change my THS intercooler.

Stevie.

Offline Pesky jones

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 19
  • Posts: 1639
Re: Torque lbsft.
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2016, 03:07:25 pm »
:thinking:
/5252 is used to apply the correct ratio to the equation in order to state a value in bhp or lb/ft specifically. It's just for the units - an appendage to the main equation.

Power is a product of torque and speed.

Power = (torque x speed) is correct.

BHP = (lb/ft x rpm) /5252 is correct.

XXXlb/ft * XXXrpm just equals XXXlbft/rpm ...so there was always going to be some sort of ratio to get the unit BHP however perhaps could have been mentioned to avoid any confusion  :smiley:

Is the 5252 rpm?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 03:09:44 pm by Pesky jones »