What remap would you recommend? Mk5 gti DSG

[GrayMK5GTI]

Just to add my 2 penneth, I went with my car today to R-Tech and found that it already had a Remap fitted of an unknown origin.

I actually came away with 20BHP Less than what I went in with but with a Map that was much safer, Also came away with a Map that offered far more drive-ability! Partial Throttle has improved greatly. Very happy indeed and today was my 4th visit to R-Tech on 4 different cars.

I appreciate the market for other tuners and there needs to be variety as different people like different things and I wont knock other maps just because they are not to my taste, I have driven TFSI's with other brands of Software fitted and for me ever since taking my first Golf Edition 30 to R-Tech and been very impressed with the results I have remained loyal to them ever since.

After my car was road tested and further logging was done the Map was then altered a couple of times to get around the K04 Surge Point.

I drove home feeling very valued and that I had received excellent service, Also that I was appreciated as a customer and what I wanted was listened to and reflected in the end result.

^THIS.

R-Tech are all about delivering what the customer wants, and shouldn't be seen to be pushing the boundaries of safety & component limits - they aren't a 'one trick pony' that can only do balls out power, unfortunately 99% of people want that, and so r-tech gets the reputation of pushing the boundaries of what's safe, which isn't ever the case. Bonelorry's post above reinforces this point - ask for what you want, and ye shall get 

R-Tech typically make the same power as others using less boost, and going linear (their preferred approach) is less stressful than the aggressive torque delivery of Revo & superchips.

Their TTE420 maps are almost always de-tuned from the maximum headline figures to something which is more drivable, and less stressful on the engines components - Niki is very conscious of damaging engines, and will not map anything in which has high potential to cause damage, unless the owner is willing to accept the risk (which is made very clear). 

[Saintsteve]

I opted for a linear remap from RTech, cannot fault it and power is very useable with the 338bhp and 335 lb ft it produces. Less wheel hop is one thing that I find a lot easier to control over have a more aggressive remap with a massive Torque spike which wasn't controllable off the line from another un named popular Tuner.
I also had the DSG remapped to compliment the type of map installed.

[pudding]

Just to add my 2 penneth, I went with my car today to R-Tech and found that it already had a Remap fitted of an unknown origin.

I actually came away with 20BHP Less than what I went in with but with a Map that was much safer, Also came away with a Map that offered far more drive-ability! Partial Throttle has improved greatly. Very happy indeed and today was my 4th visit to R-Tech on 4 different cars.

I appreciate the market for other tuners and there needs to be variety as different people like different things and I wont knock other maps just because they are not to my taste, I have driven TFSI's with other brands of Software fitted and for me ever since taking my first Golf Edition 30 to R-Tech and been very impressed with the results I have remained loyal to them ever since.

After my car was road tested and further logging was done the Map was then altered a couple of times to get around the K04 Surge Point.

I drove home feeling very valued and that I had received excellent service, Also that I was appreciated as a customer and what I wanted was listened to and reflected in the end result.

R-Tech typically make the same power as others using less boost, and going linear (their preferred approach) is less stressful than the aggressive torque delivery of Revo & superchips.

In comparison to which other vendors tune?  And are the engines and supporting mods in question identical, and done on the same dyno on the same day?

If that is the case, then there is no reason why R-Tech's tune would make more than a different vendor's.  Air in, burn it, exhaust out.  There are no miracles on offer which defy physics.

All things being equal, the most likely reason for the discrepancies is dyno truthfulness.

Turbo engines should have an aggressive delivery imo, otherwise get a big n'asp engine 

[GrayMK5GTI]

Superchips is a great example for this scenario. See here: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=65077.0. 1.7 bar vs 1.3 bar  - another example of R-Tech de-tuning elements of the map to make it safe, further dispelling the rumour that all R-Tech do is do is max everything out beyond the other mainstream tuners.

So much more to tuning than just adding air in, burning it and pushing it out. No other tuner uses the VVT to aid turbo spool. . . It's no miracle, but hours of development identify these little nuggets of progress.

Most tuners did a few hours of development, release a tune then walk away. Only when you personally tune & fettle hundreds of different cars a year can you really find out what these engines have to offer.

Notice the v3.4 APR tune follows a very similar graph to the map James had on his K04 with WMI in here: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43854.msg601159.html#msg601159

This made pretty much as much power & torque as a BT setup, and got a few surprised looks at the JKM Dyno day. It's not a sensible map for every day use, but shows what can be done by spooling the turbo one else, 'table-topping' boost and then spooling again. This was a development setup to see what these turbos & engines can do. 400bhp & 450lb/ft at 4,500rpm is crazy 

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43854.msg624693.html#msg624693

[AJP]

Oh gawd.. it's turned into one of those threads!

My 2p (regarding partial throttle). R-Tech maps are the only maps I've had that are completely smooth and predictable going through various throttle/load positions. There's none of that sudden boost out of nowhere situation when you just want to get moving without drama. Other maps always seemed to have a bit of 'indecision' about them. Easily confused.

It's worth noting that the other maps I'm talking about were on different engines. 1.8T, AJM, etc. So my point may well be completely invalid!

It's only k03 Stage 2 so I don't think it's got 1:1 throttle mapping, but for what it is, it's very good. I can't pick any faults in it.

If and when I go k04 I have the option of having the mapping done along with the hardware, at Statller. I assume it'd be Revo. To be honest I'm 50/50. Would I gain that much by staying with R-Tech? Possibly. Would there be an advantage to using the same guy for hardware and software? Probably. If any issues arose after the conversion I'd imagine it'd be easier to diagnose and sort by effectively trusting Steve with the whole responsibility from the start. Best way I could word it but you get my point.

When I had misfire issues on the current map I got the impression there was only so much Steve felt he could investigate as it wasn't 'his' map. He did infer that the R-Tech map was running a lot of timing and could have been causing an issue. Which kind of put me at odds between Statller and R-Tech. Ultimately it got sorted with refurbed injectors but keeping it all in-house probably has its merits in some cases.

Anyway, my point is that it's not always as black and white as saying tuner A is 'better' than tuner B.

Bit of a ramble that

[Madone]

I ran logs on my Rtech map and it was running too much timing for my liking (it was a 3deg day and pulling 6.5deg), the Revo map never pulled more than 4 or any day. So not sure what would happen on a hot day. Anyway....

I don't have a issue with Rtech or their maps, they are good, but it's the  attitude that only Rtech can map the car, everyone else's maps are rubbish, what Rtech do is magic etc etc haha  which I don't get. Even Nick from Rtech himself says other maps are good but different. I remember the day I joined the forum I asked a question about another map and got told they are crap, go to Rtech ! 

The Rtech map on my car felt more like a Vtech, it pulled hard at the top end but not as punchy down low. I prefer to ride the torque and have the car feel fast in every day use, rather than revving the car more. The Rtech felt fast but only when driving fast, it didn't feel as fast as the Revo when driving normally. Which lets face it, is how we drive 90% of the time.

[GrayMK5GTI]

I ran logs on my Rtech map and it was running too much timing for my liking (it was a 3deg day and pulling 6.5deg), the Revo map never pulled more than 4 or any day. So not sure what would happen on a hot day. Anyway....

I don't have a issue with Rtech or their maps, they are good, but it's the  attitude that only Rtech can map the car, everyone else's maps are rubbish, what Rtech do is magic etc etc haha  which I don't get. Even Nick from Rtech himself says other maps are good but different. I remember the day I joined the forum I asked a question about another map and got told they are crap, go to Rtech ! 

The Rtech map on my car felt more like a Vtech, it pulled hard at the top end but not as punchy down low. I prefer to ride the torque and have the car feel fast in every day use, rather than revving the car more. The Rtech felt fast but only when driving fast, it didn't feel as fast as the Revo when driving normally. Which lets face it, is how we drive 90% of the time.

I don't think anyone is saying other maps are rubbish. . . Apart from Supperchips 

If you ask for a more aggressive map, Niki would give you just that. Referring to my earlier post "don't ask, don't get". 

I remember a guy on here was moaning about the fact that his map wasn't as punchy as he wanted, and Niki told him to bring it back and he sorted it for free. Normally he doesn't let you leave unless you are completely satisfied 

[Madone]

Haha, it was Superchips too ! 

[AJP]

I ran logs on my Rtech map and it was running too much timing for my liking (it was a 3deg day and pulling 6.5deg), the Revo map never pulled more than 4 or any day. So not sure what would happen on a hot day. Anyway....

I don't have a issue with Rtech or their maps, they are good, but it's the  attitude that only Rtech can map the car, everyone else's maps are rubbish, what Rtech do is magic etc etc haha  which I don't get. Even Nick from Rtech himself says other maps are good but different. I remember the day I joined the forum I asked a question about another map and got told they are crap, go to Rtech ! 

The Rtech map on my car felt more like a Vtech, it pulled hard at the top end but not as punchy down low. I prefer to ride the torque and have the car feel fast in every day use, rather than revving the car more. The Rtech felt fast but only when driving fast, it didn't feel as fast as the Revo when driving normally. Which lets face it, is how we drive 90% of the time.

The misfires I had were during the summer. They cleared up once I'd fitted the refurbed injectors, which if memory serves me correctly... coincided with much cooler weather. Hmmmm.

[rtechniki]

I tend to remove the placebo from the drivers request to allow more of a throttle range to the full load power.  Basically line using a sprint booster and having it on lower settings. But then people rave on about spring boosters for the effect they give, they give no more power just 40% load demands at 20% input. 
As for knock the timing maps are setup around air temp winter comes and they add more timing summer and 30deg+ ait and the timing is remove and compensated with additional boost.   As for the knock reading it's where and when it happens and the routine to remove and add. The 020 readings are routine steps showing the ecu removing .75deg timing to keep the knock sensors happy, this is greatly effected by carbon build up and in the case above poor homogeneous mixture in the cylinders from failing injectors, clean inlet and injectors and the timing is greatly increased to where it should be the the knock routine is close to 0cf. The idea is to run optimised timing to MBT, go log any stock tfsi and report back.   The worry is knock is put out there by tuners and has been for many years.  Tuners want best power but don't want people moaning about the 020 readings, so what do they do? They try to make things look better to avoid the panic attacks during logging, so they add a greater filter to the readings on blocks 020 to stop all the panic email and support phone calls.   Something i never signed upto because i want to actually see whats going on in real time during a logging session.     If the timing is kept under control a car could run a flat 10cf and be as safe as a car running 0cf..  but in the industry is a scare tatic.    Once the timing climbs and climbing to the point its pinking then that's that fatal part.  A tfsi will pink and see 11cf+ at spike points in the peak torque band. This is linked to poor fuel too much timing advance.

[rtechniki]

As for aggressive on a k04 there is only so much you can do as the boost its alway limited at somepoint at every stage. Stage 1 limited by emp and heat
Stage 2 by fuel volume and running into compressor surge
Stage2+ by compressor surge sub 3700rpm
A car will feel epic when mapped into the surge point and will seem faster lower down.  But again the surge is something i aim to reduce and avoid at a compromise to the initial low down aggressive feeling.  But 4000rpm + on stage2+ with the supporting hardwares there is the room for us to tune to 400lbft if the customer wants that kind of raw grunt.
The way forward is an anti surge compressor wheel to remove the surge flaw from the turbo... then its torque from 2900rpm with no flutter.    The biggest worry for customers when they come in is surge they ask if it's possible to fully remove it, 80% of cars coming in are already tuned and the customer knows what they are wanting from their tuning session.   Customers can come back when ever if they are not happy or want something changes to match their needs more.

Map switch is only used on stage 1 and 2 cars where the clutch is a worry to allow customers to remove torque at a later date to stop clutch slip instead of having to come back to be detuned or / pay for a new clutch.

Min requirements for stage2+ is a clutch so we offer a full pid based map only for better refined boost control at the higher faster ramping boost demands.

if a customer is not happy or needs questions answering we offer a life time off ownership free support and help when and where we can.

[rtechniki]

The car which went back to Revo, was this the one were you wanted the most power possible from the k04 so you didnt have to fit a tte420 to fill the void after owning a tuned TTRs/rs3?  But during tuning you point out the car is only running a stock clutch for stage2+ and our 2+ tuning says a performance, clutch is needed, so I said I would remove all the torque from the lower throttle demands and "try" to get maxinum power just at WOT to give the clutch a chance of lasting and not slipping from cruise loading up?  And the peak torqued was shifted right up the rpm range past 4k to make the power delivery more progessive and not loading the clutch up at low rpm in higher gears which at the torque level you wanted would have killed the stock clutch in no time?  And on the back to back graphs you could see we reduced the spooling over the revo map to try and balance your requests with the hardware we had to play with.   This maybe the wrong car but its a reflection of what we have to juggle daily here.     If yoy was not happy or wanted more throttle or loading to give the oem DBW effect back all you had to do is phone and ask to have the map adjusted or at the time of test drive.

[pudding]

Oh gawd.. it's turned into one of those threads!

My 2p (regarding partial throttle). R-Tech maps are the only maps I've had that are completely smooth and predictable going through various throttle/load positions. There's none of that sudden boost out of nowhere situation when you just want to get moving without drama. Other maps always seemed to have a bit of 'indecision' about them. Easily confused.

It's worth noting that the other maps I'm talking about were on different engines. 1.8T, AJM, etc. So my point may well be completely invalid!

It's only k03 Stage 2 so I don't think it's got 1:1 throttle mapping, but for what it is, it's very good. I can't pick any faults in it.

If and when I go k04 I have the option of having the mapping done along with the hardware, at Statller. I assume it'd be Revo. To be honest I'm 50/50. Would I gain that much by staying with R-Tech? Possibly. Would there be an advantage to using the same guy for hardware and software? Probably. If any issues arose after the conversion I'd imagine it'd be easier to diagnose and sort by effectively trusting Steve with the whole responsibility from the start. Best way I could word it but you get my point.

When I had misfire issues on the current map I got the impression there was only so much Steve felt he could investigate as it wasn't 'his' map. He did infer that the R-Tech map was running a lot of timing and could have been causing an issue. Which kind of put me at odds between Statller and R-Tech. Ultimately it got sorted with refurbed injectors but keeping it all in-house probably has its merits in some cases.

Anyway, my point is that it's not always as black and white as saying tuner A is 'better' than tuner B.

Bit of a ramble that

Nah it's all good.  A bit of healthy debate doesn't hurt    There's a difference between arguing for the sake of arguing (or trolling as yoofs of today like to call it), and trying to gain a better understanding with the hows, the whys and the science behind it.  I for one don't take anything on face value and like to dig deeper.

I will say that Niki is one of the most community spirited tuners I've seen.  Always happy to share info and doesn't take questions or criticisms personally.  I only know of one other tuner like that, but he doesn't frequent the forums 

Your last point is very true.  Everything in car tuning is totally subjective.  Everyone has their favourite brand of suspension, tyres, brakes, oil etc and the same is true of tuners I guess.

I don't dislike my current Stg 1 custom map.  It's held it's own against a Merc A45 AMG and a few stage 2 ED30s, so it's clearly got the minerals....but it just doesn't feel quite as plump and juicy as my old Revo map.