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Author Topic: Take it easy before the remap?  (Read 14692 times)

Offline pudding

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2017, 10:49:19 am »
I got a 6R intercooler for £250 from a dealer, inc VAT.  Versus £550ish for the older all alloy one, which is still available, but will probably be obsoleted soon.

The thing with me - which I know goes against the grain with a lot of people - is I trust the car maker more than aftermarket tuners.  If VAG felt it was fine to drop the alloy ends and still produce the same power, then it's also fine by me.  Don't forget the newer S3 and Golf 7R make 300+ on the same plastic ended intercooler.  And also remember the intercooler is partially obscured by the a/c condenser and bumper, so it's surface area is not 100% exposed to the airflow.

You only have to do your own data logging of the IAT sensor to see what happens in the real world.  When idling, the IAT temps soar very quickly.  Is this heat soak?  No it isn't.  This is a compromise from fitting the IAT sensor so close to the intake valves and downstream of the (closed) throttle plate.  Combustion reversion quickly heats the sensor up and is a false reading.   As soon as you open the throttle, the airflow cools the sensor down immediately and you get a true reading again.

Where you will see heat soak is on hard WOT pulls at 5000rpm and above.   If the temps rise rapidly here and the recovery is also very slow after coming off the gas, you need a better intercooler.  I have done this analysis on my Stage 1 eddy both in summer and winter and the 6R intercooler is more than up to the job for a road car  :happy2:  Track work puts a bigger demand on the intercooler, but it's always a compromise between increased lag, cost and ease of fitment.


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Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2017, 12:18:11 pm »
@Pudding The MQB platform uses a different IC from our platform. Do you know if there are any differences in size between them? Not sure if it's correct to compare both ICs.

I also prefer OEM parts in most occasions but I know some aftermarket companies make better parts than OEM. I think it's still possible to source an alloy ended S3 IC for less than £550 from Germany. An used item in good condition would also perform well.

Even with a big IC I'm sure the GFB DV+ reduces lag a lot when doing multiple accelerations. But I agree that on the 1st WOT the lag will be bigger with a bigger IC. :smiley:

Offline pudding

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2017, 02:07:03 pm »
Sorry, I meant the 7R/S3 uses the same construction method and materials as the 6R - i.e. plastic ends, not that the 6R & 7R ICs are exactly the same.  My point was if VAG felt that alloy ends were critical to cooling performance through extensive testing, they would use them, as they once did in the early 8P S3.  Obviously there are cost savings to made using plastic and crimping rather than welding, but OEs always arrive at the best performance  / cost compromise.

I just go by dealer prices for consistency & convenience, but yep, obviously things can be sourced cheaper if you shop around :)

Agreed.  If I went aftermarket it would probably be a Wagner intercooler, if it could be clearly shown my 6R one is holding back the party :)


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Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2017, 02:41:11 pm »
Agree. You made the reasonable choice for your needs. Just who wants to reach the top power of a stage 2+ needs to source the best performance parts, which comes with a bigger price tag (or more modifications to the front end to fit a Welly cooler, for example).

I know my IC isn't the best available in the market but so far it hasn't been an issue performance wise with my current tune. I haven't seen a worrying IAT during hot days in the Summer (even when the exterior temperature is near 40ºC). It cost me £360 + £60 for the bigger silicone pipes. With better fuel my tuner could make it more aggressive and request more boost from the turbo, which would increase the IAT.

Offline pudding

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2017, 02:56:58 pm »
I think that is the key to it personally - building for purpose.  I'm seeing more and more Stage 2 and 2+ people blowing engines and turbos on the facebook group, so what you said there about requesting too much boost is spot on.  I don't get it personally.  Even 350hp is pushing it on these engines and is VERY fast for a GTI road car, but people want 400, and it's just not sustainable with a K04.  Something has to give.  It's better to run a TTE420 at lower boost and make the power far more efficiently instead of spinning a K04 way out of it's efficiency zone.  All it's doing is baking the intercooler and destroying it's thrust bearings.

Anyway, I digress.  I'm glad you are happy with your setup  :happy2:


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Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2017, 04:10:17 pm »
My younger self wouldn't mind having more power but being reasonable I think the setup is reliable in the long term. Not much torque, not much increase in the IAT and not much engine heat when pushed. I prefer to keep the car well than risking my luck. :smiley:

Offline Lucastheone92

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2017, 01:42:49 pm »
I think that is the key to it personally - building for purpose.  I'm seeing more and more Stage 2 and 2+ people blowing engines and turbos on the facebook group, so what you said there about requesting too much boost is spot on.  I don't get it personally.  Even 350hp is pushing it on these engines and is VERY fast for a GTI road car, but people want 400, and it's just not sustainable with a K04.  Something has to give.  It's better to run a TTE420 at lower boost and make the power far more efficiently instead of spinning a K04 way out of it's efficiency zone.  All it's doing is baking the intercooler and destroying it's thrust bearings.

Anyway, I digress.  I'm glad you are happy with your setup  :happy2:
350bhp pushing it on a K04? I've a;ways heard these can safely handle 400. Got me having second thoughts about my stage 2+

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2017, 02:05:28 pm »
350bhp pushing it on a K04? I've a;ways heard these can safely handle 400. Got me having second thoughts about my stage 2+

They can't handle 400 BHP safely without WMI or without +100 octane petrol. In some European countries you can get 102 octane petrol on petrol stations, for example.

Offline pudding

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2017, 02:05:59 pm »
I think that is the key to it personally - building for purpose.  I'm seeing more and more Stage 2 and 2+ people blowing engines and turbos on the facebook group, so what you said there about requesting too much boost is spot on.  I don't get it personally.  Even 350hp is pushing it on these engines and is VERY fast for a GTI road car, but people want 400, and it's just not sustainable with a K04.  Something has to give.  It's better to run a TTE420 at lower boost and make the power far more efficiently instead of spinning a K04 way out of it's efficiency zone.  All it's doing is baking the intercooler and destroying it's thrust bearings.

Anyway, I digress.  I'm glad you are happy with your setup  :happy2:
350bhp pushing it on a K04? I've a;ways heard these can safely handle 400. Got me having second thoughts about my stage 2+

I'll rephrase it as being the comfortable limit for long term reliability  :smiley:

400 is right on the ragged edge and you need a lot of extra hardware to get there.  Not worth it against the chance of smashing a ring land imo.  Better off running a BT at lower boost to make the same power, and definitely fit uprated rods and pistons if going for 400.

Again, this is just my conservative side looking for the best reliability / power compromise, but a lot of people do run stage 2+ without problems, but then again, every week on the facebook group I see someone else with smoky turbos and broken pistons.


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Offline Shoduchi

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2017, 02:37:25 pm »
I share the same opinion with Pudding. I prefer to run with a good headroom so I don't risk too much the hardware reliability. With +350 BHP a mechanical LSD is in order, so I'd get it before trying to get ~400 BHP.

Offline AJP

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2017, 07:56:21 pm »
Some good points made in this thread. It's so easy (and quite affordable) these days to hit 400+. With the likes of the TTE hybrids along with the usual 2+ bolt-ons, more and more cars are out there at this state of tune. One side of the argument is that because of sheer numbers there will be more failures to read about than in the days when 400+ was reserved for big money builds with big Garretts. And as Pudding alluded to, these cars weren't all pushing big PSI, high EGTs, and all the other potential issues of using stock exhaust manifolds and hybrid OEM turbos.

That said, I do believe it can be done safely, on a BYD to some extent, but certainly on a CDL. So much of it is down to the mapping. It's not really peak power that's the concern, more the boost/torque delivery. If things are kept sensible at high loads (ie a progressive/flat torque curve rather than letting the boost go through the roof at low-mid revs) it's generally easy and safe to reach pub figures like 400bhp with a hybrid and one of the stronger blocks.

The caveat to all that - in my case at least - is that if and when I go k04 on my baby BWA it'll be done to a very conservative level, with a sensible torque curve, like you guys mention. So 340-350bhp peak power, and peak torque of maybe 360bhp max. A good mapper could quite easily squeeze almost 400lb/ft out of a k04, but on a BWA.... I'd be worried about it all going wrong, however many success stories there were out there!

Offline pudding

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2017, 11:37:47 am »
Part of the problem is tuners are pushing the turbo hard on 99 RON fuel, and then customers go and fill up with 95 RON because they are ignorant about fuel types.   With those kind of cylinder pressures, a slight bit of knock is sometimes all it takes.  At that pressure and rpm, your chances of the ECU responding to it and taking counter measures quickly enough are slim to non existent.  Bye bye piston(s).

Switchable maps are nice if people remember to use them!



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Offline Lucastheone92

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Re: Take it easy before the remap?
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2017, 04:03:59 pm »
Part of the problem is tuners are pushing the turbo hard on 99 RON fuel, and then customers go and fill up with 95 RON because they are ignorant about fuel types.   With those kind of cylinder pressures, a slight bit of knock is sometimes all it takes.  At that pressure and rpm, your chances of the ECU responding to it and taking counter measures quickly enough are slim to non existent.  Bye bye piston(s).

Switchable maps are nice if people remember to use them!
Why are switchable maps nice? I never change from my max r tech remap.