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Author Topic: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!  (Read 6429 times)

Offline f00glee

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Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« on: July 17, 2017, 10:45:32 pm »
As the subject suggests, been R-tech stage 1 for around 500 miles and seem to have developed a boost leak. The car at full chat now feels as it did before the remap, though perhaps a bit more sluggish to react to the throttle than ever before. Logged the car with VCDS and a friend this evening and the expected vs actual boost levels seem to confirm a boosting issue. A general code scan threw no related errors, only an engine over-speed and ECU comms error noted, but these existed as a result of the remap and before this issue occurred.

At full load the requested boost sits at 21.5psi and tails down to 17.5psi across the rev range of 2000-6000rpm on WOT in 3rd gear. The actual achieved boost lags significantly behind the requested, only achieving 15psi at around 3600rpm, tailing of parallel to the requested boost trace with only 10psi being achieved by 6000 rpm. This was performed in map 5 (full beans).

I repeated the exercise after switching back to map 1 (stock) and interestingly the requested boost remains at the same levels but achieved boost is reduced to a peak of only 6.5psi, tailing off to 3.5psi. The N75 activity between maps 1 and 5 seems to account for this with increased N75 duty cycle in map 5. I guess this is how the variable mapping is achieved, by leaving requested boost alone and manipulating the N75 valve to control impeller speed?

In any case, I'm going to crawl under the car at the next opportunity. My suspected culprits and plan of action are:
1)Remove/inspect DV - even though this is only 3-4k miles old, it could have torn already? Currently a rev G but the rev C which it replaced was actually okay when taken out so this can be put back in temporarily if it is the DV at fault.
2)Inspect piping - focus on couplings at the intercooler, I hear this is a common area for leaks.
3)PCV - look up and try method for testing. Blowing into it or something of the like?
4)General inspection of other charge air system hoses etc.
5)If nothing found at this point, CRY!

If anyone else has had similar symptoms and experience with tracing this kind of issue in the past, I'd be glad to hear any advice you might have. My suspicions are formed only from an hour or two researching on various forums etc. If any more data might be useful, I'm happy to provide Dropbox links to the excel sheets containing the data. Car is an '06 GTI with 34k, noted to be in superb condition by the guys at R-Tech and was fully serviced and prepared for the mapping with pre-emptive replacement of the usual failing points (DV, PVC, timing chain).

This on top of a niggling sluggish cold start (fuel system priming/battery perhaps??) give me a couple of things to get sorted out  :fighting:

p.s. if i have any terminology muddled here please feel free to point this out. I'm relatively new to trying to understand my car more fully and so may be ignorant to any wrong statements I have made.



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Offline colesey

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2017, 06:10:11 am »
I would refer this one to Niki Gower since he has worked in it so recently.

Since your actual boost is so much lower than requested, you appear to have a boost leak and I suspect the rubber diaphram of the diverter valve has torn. Mine did soon after Revo Stage 1 and was replaced with a Rev D. I have since replaced this with a GFB DV+ and the car feels stronger and more responsive, so would recommend spending the extra.

Offline Dan_FR

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2017, 10:28:38 am »
Inspect DV first. I managed to split one inside two months and less than 1k miles, which drove me in to buying a DV+...

If you suspect a pipe leak, check your fuel trims as any leak post map should mean positive fuel trims.

K03 GTI? Not unheard of for them to have actuator issues, actuator is known for going weak
TFSI... Revo Stage 2+... . WMI.... VCDS HEX + CAN, MPPS, VAG Commander & VAG tacho - South Wales

Offline f00glee

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2017, 01:58:10 pm »
Inspect DV first. I managed to split one inside two months and less than 1k miles, which drove me in to buying a DV+...

If you suspect a pipe leak, check your fuel trims as any leak post map should mean positive fuel trims.

K03 GTI? Not unheard of for them to have actuator issues, actuator is known for going weak

Thank you both for the replies.

Dan - thank you for the advice on fuel trims, another thing to try and log should the problem not be obvious. Yes k03.

As for the actuator comment, are you referring to the N75? If so, again something to look into with an open mind. Though as I was able to log the boost across two different maps, where two vastly different recorded N75 duty cycles produced differing actual boost pressures, my assumption is that this shows some activity from this valve/actuator making a difference and so shouldn't be the problem?

The comments are greatly appreciated and I'll be sure to post up the outcome. May not get a chance to have a proper look until Saturday. Really hoping it is as simple as the dv!




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Offline Dan_FR

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2017, 09:23:06 pm »
The actuator is the bit that actually opens and closes the wastegate using boost pressure, the N75 is just the electronic valve that controls this by regulating the boost pressure supplied to the actuator.

I suspect it'll be the DV. If it is, get a DV+ fitted. Its a must have item on a K03 where the DV is such an awkward bugger to get to. Fit and forget solution
TFSI... Revo Stage 2+... . WMI.... VCDS HEX + CAN, MPPS, VAG Commander & VAG tacho - South Wales

Offline r5gtt

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 10:39:17 pm »
Oem dv internal

 

GFB DV+ Very much recommended by me

IMG 0533" border="0

Easiest to get to when removing drivers arch liner

IMG 0532" border="0
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 10:44:56 pm by r5gtt »

Offline f00glee

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2017, 08:18:59 pm »
Spent a couple of hours under the car and found a perfectly intact DV and what seemed like a slightly misplaced intercooler connection on the hot air side. Removed, cleaned and re assembled all to give it the best chance of making some kind of difference.

...got exactly the same boost log results as my first tests the other day.

Didn't get round to checking the PCV as I've given up for today (though the more I read the less likely this seems - no rough idle being experienced, for example. Looking at what little else of the turbo piping I could see from under the car, there was nothing glaringly obvious, maybe a little weeping down the side of the intercoolers plactis end tank but hard to see. Maybe a crack in the inter cooler isn't out of the question. Looks like I need to find somewhere local who can do a smoke test or make the trip back to R-tech for some diagnostics.

 :sad1:

Thanks for the info @r5gtt. If it had been the dv or if this one splits in the future ill be sure to upgrade to one of those.
Current:
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Mk5 GTI, Tornado Red, 3-door, '06, R-tech Stage "1+"

Offline f00glee

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 10:21:39 am »
Update. Had a look at some other potential culprits. PCV valve seems fine as I can feel the valve close if I try to blow into the valve from the intake connection. Also tried running the car with the MAF sensor unplugged as I had read reports of a dirty/faulty MAF giving incorrect readings could trick the ECU into requesting different boost levels. This also made no difference.

Looks like I'm still heading down the path of a leak I cannot see or a problem with a component which isn't accessible on the driveway (actuator/the turbo itself).

Called R-tech yesterday but as Niki is away I was asked to call back on Monday. Hoped to have this sorted within a few days but looks like I'll have to be patient for a few more to get further advice. May end up going to R-tech for diagnosis.

Fingered crossed it's still just a leak I cannot see without smoke testing. Will keep updating as I learn more!


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Offline f00glee

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 10:33:46 am »
P.s. Would anyone know of a place which can offer smoke testing for the detection of boost leaks in the cambridge area?


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Offline Dan_FR

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 12:23:35 pm »
Did you check the fuel trims (block 032 - don't clear fault codes) to see if you have a high positive number? That would be a good indication of a leak. When you have logged boost, have you logged N75 DC too? Also checked Lambda correction (block 001) on a run to check it is is staying within the 25% that the ECU can adjust for?

The more logs you can do and share with us, the more chance we have of helping.... Use APRs logging guide for advice on what to log: http://www.goapr.co.uk/support/datalogging.php

I do suspect its either a leak or an actuator issue though from what I've read so far.

As for a recommendation, I'd suggest heading over to AKS Tuning. They're not too far from you and would no doubt get to the bottom of the issue
TFSI... Revo Stage 2+... . WMI.... VCDS HEX + CAN, MPPS, VAG Commander & VAG tacho - South Wales

Offline f00glee

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 01:24:22 pm »
@Dan_FR I believe I do have some logs showing what you mention, except for lambda correction. 2 links here. Some parameters change as I was attempting to reduce measured values to increase sample rate of the tool. One is with MAF plugged in, 1 out. This was last night testing to se if this made any difference. The answer was none whatsoever as far as i can tell. Perhaps suggesting the MAF readings are really rather close to the default expected values for air in.

Fuel trims both seem to be negative if I've logged the correct block 32 values. Does this make sense? Less air due to lower boost = less fuel to avoid running lean? Or am I looking at this wrong?

I took a look at the "what to log" section of APRs site before going out last night and tried to include some of the more commonly occurring parameters.

Links:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gz3mp2vq2oo3ggb/3rd%20pull%20maf%20in%20leak%2020-07.xlsx?dl=
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2d56eozr2zn7ujr/3rd%20pull%20maf%20out%20leak%2020-07.xlsx?dl=0

Can run another log with a specific set of up to 12 parameters if it would be useful. Or fuel trims again with the MAF in, as the log which includes block 32 had the MAF out. Though I'm sure these values don't seem to change in real time?

Ill bear AKS in mind as an option should I need them. Thanks for the input!  :happy2:


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Offline pudding

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 01:56:49 pm »
@Dan_FR I believe I do have some logs showing what you mention, except for lambda correction. 2 links here. Some parameters change as I was attempting to reduce measured values to increase sample rate of the tool. One is with MAF plugged in, 1 out. This was last night testing to se if this made any difference. The answer was none whatsoever as far as i can tell. Perhaps suggesting the MAF readings are really rather close to the default expected values for air in.

Fuel trims both seem to be negative if I've logged the correct block 32 values. Does this make sense? Less air due to lower boost = less fuel to avoid running lean? Or am I looking at this wrong?

I took a look at the "what to log" section of APRs site before going out last night and tried to include some of the more commonly occurring parameters.

Links:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gz3mp2vq2oo3ggb/3rd%20pull%20maf%20in%20leak%2020-07.xlsx?dl=
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2d56eozr2zn7ujr/3rd%20pull%20maf%20out%20leak%2020-07.xlsx?dl=0

Can run another log with a specific set of up to 12 parameters if it would be useful. Or fuel trims again with the MAF in, as the log which includes block 32 had the MAF out. Though I'm sure these values don't seem to change in real time?

Ill bear AKS in mind as an option should I need them. Thanks for the input!  :happy2:

What OBD lead have you got, and are you using the full licensed VCDS, or the freebie version with an ebay lead?   If you have a proper Ross-Tech HEX+CAN lead, you can switch on "Turbo!", which increases sample rate from about 3 per second, to 30.  I use that all the time as the lambda refresh rate, for example, is way too slow otherwise.   I'm not sure if Turbo mode works with clone leads, but worth a go.

As you're never hitting the boost target, it's got to be something fundamental.  Split DV probably.  They don't always cause rough running at idle, unless it has a massive gash in it.  A pin hole tear is enough to bleed off boost.


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Offline f00glee

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2017, 02:36:17 pm »
@Dan_FR The turbo button does make a difference for me but only increases the refresh rate from ~1/s to ~3/s if measuring lots of things all at once. Not exactly sure on the flavor of cable, was off ebay and not one of the newest types I believe. I saw on APRs site there is some other setting in the communications setup which can increase refresh rate. Next time I do some logging ill look that up. Not so sure I didn't fiddle around with these values before so may have made things worse rather than better!  :signLOL:

I assume your reply means you don't reckon there is anything wrong with the numbers in the logs (other than boost of course)? Ill be annoyed at myself if it does turn out to be the DV. I did give it a really good looking over for a few minutes and couldn't see any tears at all. There was a tiny amount of fraying on the underside of the diaphragm where it is bonded to the metallic part, but i gave it a good pull around and was happy that it was only superficial.

I had the choice of putting the revG back in (which I did) or putting in an old revC I had which came out as a preventative measure and was otherwise OK. Maybe its worth chucking the revC in and see what happens. Was a right faff getting it off to check the other day - didn't seem to have the right combination of ratchets/extensions for easy access. Plus, the revC will have to come out again anyway, either to put the G in again if no different or for a dv+! eurgh!  :fighting:


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Offline pudding

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2017, 04:02:04 pm »
@Dan_FR The turbo button does make a difference for me but only increases the refresh rate from ~1/s to ~3/s if measuring lots of things all at once. Not exactly sure on the flavor of cable, was off ebay and not one of the newest types I believe. I saw on APRs site there is some other setting in the communications setup which can increase refresh rate. Next time I do some logging ill look that up. Not so sure I didn't fiddle around with these values before so may have made things worse rather than better!  :signLOL:

I assume your reply means you don't reckon there is anything wrong with the numbers in the logs (other than boost of course)? Ill be annoyed at myself if it does turn out to be the DV. I did give it a really good looking over for a few minutes and couldn't see any tears at all. There was a tiny amount of fraying on the underside of the diaphragm where it is bonded to the metallic part, but i gave it a good pull around and was happy that it was only superficial.

I had the choice of putting the revG back in (which I did) or putting in an old revC I had which came out as a preventative measure and was otherwise OK. Maybe its worth chucking the revC in and see what happens. Was a right faff getting it off to check the other day - didn't seem to have the right combination of ratchets/extensions for easy access. Plus, the revC will have to come out again anyway, either to put the G in again if no different or for a dv+! eurgh!  :fighting:

I haven't looked at the logs, I don't have access to dropbox at work.

Ah OK, I'm sure I read further back that you hadn't checked the DV yet, but sounds like it's OK then.

If all the hardware checks out, you'll need to arrange an appointment with Dr Nikki for another checkup!


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Offline f00glee

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Re: Stage 1 for 500 miles - Boost Leak? - Advice Please!
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2017, 04:23:04 pm »
Sorry @Pudding I hadn't realized it was you replying, I had assumed it was a continuation of the conversation with Dan. Doh! Thanks for your input in any case :) Think I'm gonna do my best to put it out of my mind for the weekend to avoid chasing my own tail, see what "Dr Nikki" recommends come Monday. Though I am usually the sort of person who cant let this sort of thing lie, even for a minute, ill do my best!

In the mean time, any more ideas from anyone, I'm all ears!
Current:
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Previous:
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