245s.... anyone done it?

[AJP]

Plenty of us are familiar with the gripes of a reasonably warm FWD car. Lots of fun 'rolling', but at other times scrambling for grip. Booting it in 2nd from 30mph up into 3rd (and then the speed limit) is one of those times.

I'm not talking about stock states of tune here. Any "I don't struggle for grip" responses from owners of cars running stock-ish torque don't apply to this thread, I'm afraid. And yes, we know about the ALKs, sticky rubber, coilies, and all that. Let's assume all that's done.

So, grip. Limted Slip Differential is one. AWD conversation is another. Both big money. What I've been pondering for a while is the simplest, and undoubtedly the cheapest - more tyre on the road.

Put simply:

Kerscher / SRS carbon wide front wings, apparently giving an extra 25-30mm clearance each side.

9s all round.

245s all round.

Has anyone done it? Was it worth it?

[slix]

Surely the extra weight of the tyre/wider alloys will outweigh the benefit of more rubber on the road for grip. More inertia will occur.

Remember lighter wheel and tyres combo will keep the wheels planted better and will have less rebound from the suspension to keep them touching the ground quicker.

[pudding]

Mmmmmm, 9J Compomotive MO1890 with Kerscher wings..... the stuff of dreams.   

They are frickin heavy wheels though.   I had a set of 8x17 some years ago and they were 10.5Kg.  I hate to think how heavy the 9Jx18 is!!  I wish Team Dynamics still made the ProRace 1.  They looked superb in wide format and were very light.

I'm sure you've considered all the pros and cons but one thing in the back of my mind would be the cost to implement it is way more than getting an LSD fitted, dependent on your choice of parts obviously!

Sounds like a great project 

[rich83]

More grip isn't always a good thing... but I would look at better tyres rather than wider ones.

[AJP]

Fair points chaps. Keep the discussion going!

[pudding]

Just do it mate.  Life is too short to procrastinate 

Too much grip is an issue when you have drinking straws for driveshafts and gearboxes made of cottage pie, but neither apply to the GTI 

The only thing that would deter me is how heavy the car will feel with massive wheels and tyres.

[slix]

Another thing.... when I put my new alloys on, which were 2kg lighter per corner, I noticed I had slightly more grip. The tyres stayed exactly the same, just put onto the new wheels.

[AJP]

How heavy is a BBS VZ? Say I found a wheel an inch wider that was no heavier than a VZ, it'd only be the weight of the extra tyre that'd be slowing/weighing things down.

So that begs the question - what exactly is the difference in weight between say a 225 40 18 and a 245 35 18? Negligible, or considerable?

[pudding]

Slix has the nail on the head....it's about how quickly the tyre can regain grip after hitting a bump.  Heavy wheels affect the damper rebound.  But you can tune that if you have adjustable suspension.

If you can find a bigger wheel that's no heavier (or preferably lighter) than stock, you'll be fine. 

Continental seem to make the lightest tyres out of the big players in my experience.  I went through all this in my Corrado days.  The combo of a 7x17 ProRace 1 + 205/40/17 ContiSport 3 was 2Kg lighter than the OEM 15" Speedlines with a cheapy 15" ditch finder 

It is very possible to go large without the calories mate, but it's just the faff of researching weights and fitments, it can take a while!   Worth it though 

Have you driven an R32?  If you haven't, it would give an idea of how a Golf with extra porkiness will feel.

[AJP]

Slix has the nail on the head....it's about how quickly the tyre can regain grip after hitting a bump.  Heavy wheels affect the damper rebound.  But you can tune that if you have adjustable suspension.

If you can find a bigger wheel that's no heavier (or preferably lighter) than stock, you'll be fine. 

Continental seem to make the lightest tyres out of the big players in my experience.  I went through all this in my Corrado days.  The combo of a 7x17 ProRace 1 + 205/40/17 ContiSport 3 was 2Kg lighter than the OEM 15" Speedlines with a cheapy 15" ditch finder 

It is very possible to go large without the calories mate, but it's just the faff of researching weights and fitments, it can take a while!   Worth it though 

Have you driven an R32?  If you haven't, it would give an idea of how a Golf with extra porkiness will feel.

I don't mind doing the research, that's half the fun of modding for me - having confidence in an upgrade/mod by actually understanding the science of it, rather than looking for a brand name or copying others and blindly  throwing money at things!

Completely agree with you and Slix regarding wheel and tyre weight. Adding unsprung weight would be going in the wrong direction. I suppose if I was really serious about this (at competition level or something) I'd also consider 17x9 rather than 18x9, to keep the weight closer to the hub, as well as making sure the wheels were of a mega light construction.

This gets closer and closer to proper race technology the more you define an ideal - and goes up in cost massively - but I like to think some ideas from those kind of cars can be passed down to our hatchbacks.

So, FWD race cars. What do they have to aid rotation and straight line grip? A diff, naturally, but I'm sure I've read about 'reverse stagger' - wider at the front than the back. It all makes interesting reading, anyway..!

I haven't driven an R32, Kev. But everything I've heard makes them sound a bit 'lardy' :)

[pudding]

Hmmm, quite tempted by some Compomotive MOs myself!  Big fan of old school wheels 

[AJP]

Mmmm. Now you're talking. Remember Azev A? I doubt they'd be light enough to make this feasible, but they're one of my favourites.

[pudding]

Slix has the nail on the head....it's about how quickly the tyre can regain grip after hitting a bump.  Heavy wheels affect the damper rebound.  But you can tune that if you have adjustable suspension.

If you can find a bigger wheel that's no heavier (or preferably lighter) than stock, you'll be fine. 

Continental seem to make the lightest tyres out of the big players in my experience.  I went through all this in my Corrado days.  The combo of a 7x17 ProRace 1 + 205/40/17 ContiSport 3 was 2Kg lighter than the OEM 15" Speedlines with a cheapy 15" ditch finder 

It is very possible to go large without the calories mate, but it's just the faff of researching weights and fitments, it can take a while!   Worth it though 

Have you driven an R32?  If you haven't, it would give an idea of how a Golf with extra porkiness will feel.

I don't mind doing the research, that's half the fun of modding for me - having confidence in an upgrade/mod by actually understanding the science of it, rather than looking for a brand name or copying others and blindly  throwing money at things!

Completely agree with you and Slix regarding wheel and tyre weight. Adding unsprung weight would be going in the wrong direction. I suppose if I was really serious about this (at competition level or something) I'd also consider 17x9 rather than 18x9, to keep the weight closer to the hub, as well as making sure the wheels were of a mega light construction.

This gets closer and closer to proper race technology the more you define an ideal - and goes up in cost massively - but I like to think some ideas from those kind of cars can be passed down to our hatchbacks.

So, FWD race cars. What do they have to aid rotation and straight line grip? A diff, naturally, but I'm sure I've read about 'reverse stagger' - wider at the front than the back. It all makes interesting reading, anyway..!

I haven't driven an R32, Kev. But everything I've heard makes them sound a bit 'lardy' :)

Yeah all of that! Aggressive geometry, fat (light) wheels, light weight slicks, wide track (longer control arms, not spacers), camber plates, rock hard suspension, plated diffs (not torsens), ditching the interior, sequential boxes...all the good stuff    The one thing race cars don't care about is refinement and lifespan, so that is always something to consider with a road car.

Do you remember Fiesta XR2s? They had staggered axles, much wider front track    It worked really well as those things handled very nicely indeed.

Perhaps go wide track with TTRS control arms?

If you spent a week with an R32 and then got back into your car again, you'd be amazed at the difference.  The GTI is way more nimble.

Azev A, epic wheel.  StilAuto Sigma as well 

[rich83]

Too much grip is an issue when you have drinking straws for driveshafts and gearboxes made of cottage pie, but neither apply to the GTI 

I wasn't referring to components braking... I was trying to allude to the fact that giving a car too much grip can actually make it boring. You want a certain amount of movability.

225 with decent grippy tyres is perfectly acceptable without having to f*ck about with wide wings etc etc.

If you have not tried AD08R or R888R or any other grippy tyre then make that your first port of call.

[pudding]

Remember you can balance out the wheel weight penalty with lighter chassis components.  Passat alloy WBs and hubs, lighter brakes and you already have coilovers, which are lighter than stock struts. 

What about an 8x18 with 235 tyres as a compromise?