Quite induction

[Molesy]

Yeah 4th is best as it's a 1:1 ratio, so takes gearing out of the equation.   As Dan says, you need to keep the pedal pinned because the boost varies with pedal position.

Popped up to AKS today and got the Revo Stage 2+ done. B9, T4, F8.

Initially I was surprised how flat it felt compared to my custom map. Quite a marked difference in pedal punch.  The Revo needs a much harder shove on the pedal to get the same sensation of midrange thump, despite going with the default non-linear pedal map.  There was no timing pull on the test runs apparently and Vince there said it was quick, so I guess that's how it is.

During the 80 mile journey home, I got used to it and it's way smoother at part throttle and the 2500-3000 surging has gone.  I think because it's smoother, it can be perceived as being slower, but the mph needle flies round just as quick as before.  I'm not dissapointed, it's a really good map......I was expecting it to be more aggressive.  I will play with the settings.  I might back the boost off and add timing. 

What do the numbers add/subtract in real terms?  Say, going from T1 to T9, how many degrees of advance does it add, and is it across the whole map or just in boost? 

The Revo intake is a lot quieter with their own software, which is a nice, but unexpected bonus!

Another plus point is an annoying jolt coming on/off the throttle around town has completely gone.  Go Revo 
 

Nice one Pudding, I found it very similar with my Stage 1 recently with how progressive it is with the pedal and so much smoother power delivery!

[Bodyboarder81]

@Pudding

The surging you talk about .... pretty sure I get this with mine , I’ve heard it mentioned before . Something to do with too much boost for the engine to cope with at lower rpm ‘s ? Does the upgraded pump sort this then ?

Glad your happy with the map /money spent , always nice when it turns out good 

[pudding]

The KO4 turbo has a spool up/flow characteristic that overwhelms the engine at a certain load / rpm point, which is between 2500-3000rpm with 50-75% throttle and 20+psi.

Best way I can describe it is......nail it at 2500 and it goes like a stabbed rat for a second or 2, then hits the mega flat spot and stutters, then takes off again.

If you have an open cone intake, you can also hear the turbo fluttering badly between those rpms.

A lot of tuners reduce the boost in that region to get around that. Some complain the car feels slower as a result, but smoother boost delivery is faster than wheel spin, or a huge flat spot!

Revo have tuned that area very nicely.   No issues there at all, but they are running a lot less boost there than the old map     I would be surprised if yours has KO4 surging to be honest.  It could just be less responsive in that area because they dialled the boost back, which makes you think it's surging?  Have you got the Loba pump?

[Bodyboarder81]

It’s just it does a pulse/surge type thing like you’ve explained .... didn’t hear it as much with the standard air box but with the revo induction on you can hear it . No don’t have the Loba .... wasn’t planning on fitting one to be honest but just curious if this helps with the surging

[AJP]

It’s just it does a pulse/surge type thing like you’ve explained .... didn’t hear it as much with the standard air box but with the revo induction on you can hear it . No don’t have the Loba .... wasn’t planning on fitting one to be honest but just curious if this helps with the surging

A few turbo builders do a K04 with an anti-surge wheel. I've seen a few graphs of 2+ setups with this and the torque from low to mid looks really impressive. Not just getting rid of the flat spot but the initial spool almost looks comparable to a K03. Mapping doesn't need to be compromised - the tuner has much more to play with in terms of ramp up etc. It's something I've always kept in mind if and when I go K04 on my GTI. I'd love a setup that picks up just as well but doesn't give up on boost from 4-5k like the little K03 does.

Kev, glad you're happy with the Revo map. You've had a while of tinkering with the software so hopefully this is closer to what you want and you can perfect it with the SPS. Let me know how you get on!

[AJP]

Oh and get a better pump Bodyboarder. TFSIs love fuel.

[pudding]

It’s just it does a pulse/surge type thing like you’ve explained .... didn’t hear it as much with the standard air box but with the revo induction on you can hear it . No don’t have the Loba .... wasn’t planning on fitting one to be honest but just curious if this helps with the surging

I think some VCDS logging is in order here, to see what the sensor values are during this surge.   I suspect your pump is weak.   If log the lambda regulator channel and see +25% in boost, you need a pump.

Cheers @AJP I'm happy with it.  Very docile until provoked. It feels like VW themselves mapped it.  None of the tyre shredding drama from before, which I still can't get my head around as I always heard feedback from people that Stage 2+ Revo was savage 

So here's a ponderingment for a Friday morning.  If you can adjust the boost, fuel and timing yourself, why are there hardware requirements you MUST have before getting the flash?  Surely you can just turn the boost etc down to suit your hardware?  There must be more to it that I don't realise, or the adjustments are tiny.....but it seems you can dial things back all the way to stock levels with the SPS!  Handy 

Good shout on anti-surge cores.  I've read the TTE420 doesn't have the surge problem either and spools like a standard KO4. 

I'm also wondering if a more generalized mapping / turbo talk thread is needed seeing as this is all mixed in with quiet intake discussions!

[pudding]

Ah OK, cool.  Integrated make some good stuff     

The Revo scaling is off as well.  You don't need to log it to know it.  You can feel it in the idle quality and it's sluggishness to pull away from a standstill (in a manual at least).  It's the slower air speeds which are affected by it the most. Quite amusing really as Revo bang on about MAF scaling being 'an art' on their website   

Yes, same issue with my VWR too.  It idled like crap. Stick the factory air box back on and voila, problem solved.

Again.....they've simply ignored what the OEM did because they couldn't match the flow characteristics of an elliptical MAF housing with a laminar grid.  You don't need a Masters degree in automotive engineering to see that mounting a MAF that close to a turbulent compressor wheel is going to cause problems.  Think of emptying a sink.   The water drops down the plug hole just fine with big volumes of water, but when the water is almost gone, you get a very visible whirlpool.  Same happens inside an intake tube with turbos and that is why that laminar grid is there - to straighten the air flow at idle and other slow gas speed situations. Oval tubes help reduce that as well. Rocket science it isn't!

I have a plan, but it won't be elegant looking but it will involve chopping out the MAF housing from the OEM cover 

Revo and VWR are lucky only 1 in 10000 customers are like me 

What Revo don't tell you is that the MAF scaling of their intake is matched in their software. Run an OEM housing with an aftermarket intake on their software (2+ based on my experience) and you end up with a lower reading, sluggish car and high LTFT (12-15%) - Been there and tried it, even with the OEM MAF screen and various size/shape home made alternatives (they genuinely make very little difference with an aftermarket intake pipe from my experience).

If your software uses the standard MAF maps then I'm sure a standard MAF housing will be an improvement.

Not sure which other tuners, if any, spend time correcting the MAF tables

I have also tried MAF pipes from other aftermarket intakes and saw a LTFT of around +10% and a distinctly sluggish performance off boost as you've described.

I must have been lucky with the MAF pipe I currently have, sourced from a CTS intake if I remember rightly but the dimensions and MAF location (including depth/positioning inside the pipe) are identical to the Revo...... LTFT is literally + or - 2% - depending on driving style and how much the WMI has been used. The mounting depth of the MAF inside the circular pipe is crucial to airflow readings on these intakes and seems to be overlooked by many companies.

End result - very spritely and eager even though I have no runner flaps which will only hinder low air speed scenarios.

Just to follow up on this, Revo's intake MAF scaling is way off.   They mention on their website the MAF scaling is stock.

To cut a long story of me doing back to back testing of stock vs VWR vs Revo, Stock and VWR are fairly close.  Revo LTFTs climb to +15% over 100 miles.  Stock is 3%, VWR around 5% over the same distance.

Effective cross sectional diameter of the stock oval MAF housing using ellipsoid/oval math calcs = 63mm ID.

VWR MAF ID = 64mm.

Revo MAF ID = 66mm.

VWR shove an insert inside their 66mm intake tube to drop the diameter down to as close to stock as possible.

Revo don't bother, but I will drop a 63mm ID insert into it to correct the trims.  Paying customers are the beta testers as always.  Amateur hour products at premium prices 

[Dan_FR]

What software are you running when conducting the tests? Revo software or flashed back to standard?

Be interesting if these tests were conducted on 100% stock software

[Shoduchi]

What software are you running when conducting the tests? Revo software or flashed back to standard?

Be interesting if these tests were conducted on 100% stock software

I get 4.7% correction on the LTFT with my VWR intake. The MAF scaling is stock.

[Dave J]

How have you got round the intake pipe hitting/putting pressure on the coolant union?

I love how my VWR intake sounds, but it has broken the union once and I'd like to know if anyone has good suggestions how to solve the issue other than junking the setup...!

Would this sort it; http://www.gruvenparts.com/vw-audi-bpy-billet-radiator-hose-4y/

[pudding]

What software are you running when conducting the tests? Revo software or flashed back to standard?

Be interesting if these tests were conducted on 100% stock software

Sorry, I should have added the tests were all done with Revo 2+ software on the same B9, T5, F7 setting.

How have you got round the intake pipe hitting/putting pressure on the coolant union?

I love how my VWR intake sounds, but it has broken the union once and I'd like to know if anyone has good suggestions how to solve the issue other than junking the setup...!

Would this sort it; http://www.gruvenparts.com/vw-audi-bpy-billet-radiator-hose-4y/

For the purpose of the test I just threw it in loosely without the front air scoop, which means you can run the canister above the coolant pipe.   If I was to fit the VWR kit permanently, I would put a dent in the canister for clearance.  Or you could tilt the canister up above the elbow and use an OEM plastic flex bellows to join it to the other pipe.   The bellows on the stock airbox fits the VWR piping if you trim off the oblong end of it.....or any 76mm ID OEM bellow from any VAG car will do the job.   Just don't use rubber as it may collapse under boost, restricting air flow.

The Gruven parts elbow whilst stronger, doesn't address the issue.  The canister would just wear through the pipe instead of breaking the outlet off.  The only fix is to provide adequate clearance for engine rock.  Something VWR should have done in the first place but VWR are like so many other small UK companies - virtually bugger all R&D and a very strong "that'll do" approach to things, rather like the utter embarrassment that was British Leyland.





   

[Dan_FR]

I must say I'm really quite surprised at your findings @Pudding I never thought the Revo would be so far off when using their software.

Let us know once you have reduced the intake ID to 63MM and whether it helps. I imagine, if your car responds as mine did, that once you correct the MAF readings the car will drive all the better for it

[pudding]

I was surprised too given how Revo proclaim to have the MAF scaling spot on.  New MAF, old MAF, makes no difference.  No vac leaks etc. 

It didn't drive that badly with high trims to be fair, but putting the stock air-box back on has improved the idle quality and part throttle response no end.

[pudding]

I appreciate this is likely old news, but in the interests of sharing.....there's a lot of interesting info in this (6 year old!) thread - http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread.php?11812-Forge-Wintake-amp-MAF-sensor-read-issue

According to that thread, the Volant intake shows 3% trims and was the one the tuners in that thread recommended back in 2012.  The info and testing relates to the MK6 R, so very relevant to ED30 owners.

Other useful little nuggets I picked out of that thread:

The top end AFRs can be 0.5 leaner than requested if the trims are not correct, which is dangerous at 2+ levels of tune. 

Most of the tables in the ECU rely on accurate MAF readings, therefore it is recognized that software tuners don't (or shouldn't at least) modify the MAF table, otherwise the engine would be locked down to a particular intake for life and skew other calibrations.

The regular K03 engine doesn't seem to suffer with wild fluctuations as much as the KO4 engines.  Must be a flow dynamics difference between the two compressor wheels.

This little beauty    http://www.42draftdesigns.com/fsi-oem-style-maf-housing/   Hats off to them for that one.  Very neat.

Adding a laminar grid has shown improvements.

And some other bits n bobs.


In other news, Revo 2+ continuing to drive very nicely indeed with the stock intake.  Kept up with a new shape 335d no problem on the way into work this morning, so that's a good sign things are healthy as they are bloody quick in the midrange.

Cold starting and hot and cold idles are also considerably better compared to the Revo intake.  As is part throttle smoothness.

Thinking of just throwing both intakes onto ebay to be honest.   Feeling a bit indecisive.  I don't think the modest top end gains are worth the high price of the intake, the noise, or the idle/part throttle rubbishness in all honesty.