Most power made on a standerd ko4

[ROH ECHT]

My K04 numbers on a Dyno-Jet: 350 bhp and 354 lb*ft and boosting 27 psi and a 3 bar MAP sensor. I have swapped back to my original tune and tuner, because had to rebuild my engine with that tune, and with the oem 2.55 bar MAP sensor now get 330 BHP and 364 lb*ft at 25 psi and does a better 1/4 et and trap.

[pudding]

My K04 numbers on a Dyno-Jet: 350 bhp and 354 lb*ft and boosting 27 psi and a 3 bar MAP sensor. I have swapped back to my original tune and tuner, because had to rebuild my engine with that tune, and with the oem 2.55 bar MAP sensor now get 330 BHP and 364 lb*ft at 25 psi and does a better 1/4 et and trap.

With you being in America, is that at the tire or crank?  I know the US tuning scene favors WHP over crank power, but your numbers are what I'd expect to see at the crank for that boost pressure 

[Tazocin]

Well I've put my Edition on Unicorn motors dyno for 2+ mapping. I did ask for a soft and gentle map - dont want to be breaking anything too soon and Rick told me that the brand new tyres I was using would cause me to lose power as well.

Made 340bhp and 375ft/lb which I was initially disappointed with until I drove it, cant say I need any more power at all, getting it down from 1-3rd gear is a challenge even in the dry and with all the suspension mods done. Ive also heard that its considered quite a harsh dyno comparatively. I know at end of the day numbers mean everything to some people but I do plan to head to R-tech at some point and take advantage of their injector/walnut blast cleaning so will get it on their dyno and see what it makes.

As a note I've run it next to my friends Ed30 which is 377/402 and it held its own just fine so numbers do vary from one dyno to another (I did have ALK and he didnt plus I'm DSG and he isnt so that might answer it.)

For comparison I'm running
Forge twintake (considered restrictive on ko4)
Vis HPFP - no problems
Airtec stg 1 IC (slightly better than s3 apparently)
BCS full tBE with sports cat - could get a bit more with a decat

So I could upgrade a cpl of mods (namely intake and run a second IC or a bigger one) and I need to get a FPRV put in when I get manifold cleaned. Car is on 130k miles so will undoubtedly benefit from carbon cleaning but the mileage is also why I'm not pushing like crazy. Rick did say that fixing those mods would improve my numbers but I might not notice a vast difference on everyday use.

[ROH ECHT]

My K04 numbers on a Dyno-Jet: 350 bhp and 354 lb*ft and boosting 27 psi and a 3 bar MAP sensor. I have swapped back to my original tune and tuner, because had to rebuild my engine with that tune, and with the oem 2.55 bar MAP sensor now get 330 BHP and 364 lb*ft at 25 psi and does a better 1/4 et and trap.

With you being in America, is that at the tire or crank?  I know the US tuning scene favors WHP over crank power, but your numbers are what I'd expect to see at the crank for that boost pressure 

Crank HP, yes. 
My WHP was 300 to 315 with each tune on the dyno. Best figure for crank HP I could do was "mass air/0.8"...268 g/s with one and 281 g/s with the other. So, that Dyno-Jet must've been a 10% reduction from HP to WHP. This is off-the-shelf GIAC(300whp) and DriverMotorsport(315whp) K04 tunes without additives of any sort.

[pudding]

Well I've put my Edition on Unicorn motors dyno for 2+ mapping. I did ask for a soft and gentle map - dont want to be breaking anything too soon and Rick told me that the brand new tyres I was using would cause me to lose power as well.

Made 340bhp and 375ft/lb which I was initially disappointed with until I drove it, cant say I need any more power at all, getting it down from 1-3rd gear is a challenge even in the dry and with all the suspension mods done. Ive also heard that its considered quite a harsh dyno comparatively. I know at end of the day numbers mean everything to some people but I do plan to head to R-tech at some point and take advantage of their injector/walnut blast cleaning so will get it on their dyno and see what it makes.

As a note I've run it next to my friends Ed30 which is 377/402 and it held its own just fine so numbers do vary from one dyno to another (I did have ALK and he didnt plus I'm DSG and he isnt so that might answer it.)

For comparison I'm running
Forge twintake (considered restrictive on ko4)
Vis HPFP - no problems
Airtec stg 1 IC (slightly better than s3 apparently)
BCS full tBE with sports cat - could get a bit more with a decat

So I could upgrade a cpl of mods (namely intake and run a second IC or a bigger one) and I need to get a FPRV put in when I get manifold cleaned. Car is on 130k miles so will undoubtedly benefit from carbon cleaning but the mileage is also why I'm not pushing like crazy. Rick did say that fixing those mods would improve my numbers but I might not notice a vast difference on everyday use.

That's the thing, the difference between 400hp and 350hp out on the open road is negligible.    The tuning industry is very one dimensional and driven by marketing numbers.   350hp is the real stage 2+ number with bolt ons, I think everyone knows that deep down.   The figures above that have had pixie dust sprinkled onto the dyno.

The only way to get a real picture is to take one of these 400hp cars and measure it independently on 5 different brand of measuring device.  3 x rolling roads, 1 x hub dyno and 1 x bench dyno.   Take the average across the 5.   It definitely will not average 400hp, that's for sure!   I think the bench dyno would cause some blokes to cry.

[Pesky jones]

That's the thing, the difference between 400hp and 350hp out on the open road is negligible.    The tuning industry is very one dimensional and driven by marketing numbers.   350hp is the real stage 2+ number with bolt ons, I think everyone knows that deep down.   The figures above that have had pixie dust sprinkled onto the dyno.

Agreed, as has been suggested throughout the thread 

So we agree that day in day out 2+ figures of 350 are accurate and relaible, but then, on the same dyno, an exceptional one off, tuned car produces figures of 400, but this figure, on the same dyno - is now all of a sudden not reliable?

In other words
standard 2+ CAR A goes on dyno and produces 350. Everyone happy and reliable
maximum power test CAR B goes on dyno and produces 400. Not reliable?

[pudding]

You mean if the 400hp car measures 400hp on a different dyno to where it was tuned?  Well it would certainly be more credible if the same result is seen twice on 2 different (make) dynos than a one off reading 

I'm not too concerned with dyno numbers because an average across several of them would level the playing field, I'm just more interested in whether a genuine 400hp is possible or not, from a KO4 engine with the usual bolt ons.   It would be nice if it could do it, but I don't think the turbo is anywhere near big enough for it.  Other tuners barely manage 400hp with a TTE420, and yet, some tuners are measuring way past 420, into the 440s.  That turbo is a fair bit bigger than a KO4.   The main problem is getting the exhaust out of the same size housing and manifold volume, so again, there's always questions to be asked when the figures are outside of the realistic expectations.

[Pesky jones]

You mean if the 400hp car measures 400hp on a different dyno to where it was tuned?  Well it would certainly be more credible if the same result is seen twice on 2 different (make) dynos than a one off reading 

Nope – the same tuner, same dyno.

Tuner X normally produces 350 from a stage 2+ tune with all the hardware. This is the norm – we all agree this a reliable and trustworthy figure.

Tuner X then decides to max the turbo out today with a few little extra tricks and with disregard for engine safety/longeivty, and cracks 400. If the normal 350 was reliable, why is the exceptional 400 not reliable?

[pudding]

Because it's the same dyno, same operator, same margin for error.   Nobody sees the coast down adjustments the operator applies to the figure measured at the roller, which is why the measurement needs to be done on a number of different dynos with different operators, all using exactly the same coast down calcs.

Some assessment into why one car makes 350 and the other 400 would need doing as well 

[Pesky jones]

Presumably the operator applies the same adjustments to the roller for each and every dyno run... (?)

If the 400 figure is not true and down to the specific adjustments of the operator - then every reading that dyno takes is also unreliable. Which lead to my question why do stock cars make stock power figures, or why do we trust the normal 350 stage 2+ figure, on the same dyno producing the 400 figure.

Some assessment into why one car makes 350 and the other 400 would need doing as well 

Because one car is pushed to absolute max, the other is your standard, day in day out tune with regard for engine safety/longevity...

[pudding]

You key in the barometric pressure and ambient temp for each run......but who's to say some operators don't make the temp -20 C to make the numbers higher?  Different wheels, tyres, brakes etc can affect the coast down calcs, as can the gear used for the run.
Plenty of videos on you tube discussing this and how easy it is to manipulate the numbers.

Not all dynos record factory power though.  I hear so often of standard ED30s measuring 250-260hp, and that is a clue right there about rolling road accuracy, but again, it's quite easy to dial back a stock over read and dial up a tuned under read to give customers a much bigger before and after difference.

Yes but I don't believe a KO4 is even capable of a genuine 400hp in the first place.  Dyno manipulation is a different subject.

[AJP]

Number chasing...

It's fun to analyse different RR graphs of different setups and learn a bit along the way. But it's really only any use if you can be objective about it, ie comparing graphs from different setups on the same dyno (and to be honest even then there's so much variance in ambient temp and all sorts of things from one day to the next).

Can a k04 TFSI make an indicated 400bhp? Maybe. But it'd have to be done in the knowledge that something will break and it was being done strictly as an experiment for a bit of fun. IIRC a member on here a while ago called James did just this with Mr Gower. I can't remember the figures, but it did make notably more than the usual R-Tech k04 numbers, with a lairy looking torque curve.

Predictably, something broke.

But a reliable 400bhp? No.

[Pesky jones]

Can a k04 TFSI make an indicated 400bhp? Maybe. But it'd have to be done in the knowledge that something will break and it was being done strictly as an experiment for a bit of fun. IIRC a member on here a while ago called James did just this with Mr Gower. I can't remember the figures, but it did make notably more than the usual R-Tech k04 numbers, with a lairy looking torque curve.

Good to see that I didnt imagine these one-off tests, and am not the only one who's come away under the impression that k04s can crack 400 if you wring its neck

But a reliable 400bhp? No.

Never the question. Purely maximum power of a k04. Posts that allude to the question being about the reliability of the engine at X power will surely confuse the topic. Doesn't matter if it blows a piston up 

[pudding]

Haha I know it's been 'measured' on that particular dyno a few times, but if you revert back to science for a minute......to make a genuine 400hp, you need around 45lb/min mass flow rate through the engine - airbox inlet to tailpipe.  On a modern engine like the EA888 which has variable lift and duration on both cams, you can possibly push that much through with a big enough turbo.  Even they max out at 380ish with bolt ons with the IS38 snail.

On the EA113 with only variable timing on just the inlet cam, and a KO4-061 that can only manage 36lb/min mass flow rate.  How is 400 possible?

If you push that snail way into Choke, you'll get massive back pressure at the exhaust valves, and 1 of 3 things will happen.  You'll bend a rod, break a piston or bend the exhaust valves slightly.  I can see that happening pushing for a real 400.

[Shoduchi]

This is my latest map update. I've changed house, now it's from RPM Engine Power Management based in Italy but it dealers in a few countries. Still a custom tune but from a remote tuner.



It was done with BP Ultimate with 98 octanes.