Make a donation

Author Topic: Stage 2 or 2+ ???  (Read 3932 times)

Offline griff30

  • Taking part
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 9
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 29
    • Email
Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« on: March 05, 2018, 10:28:52 pm »
Just thought Id chuck this out there and see if there are any comments to help me decide!   Ive got an Edition 30 which has had an RTECH stage 1 map for a few years. Recently added a BCS Full powervalve system so now keen to get an intake kit on it then get it back up to RTECH for a stage 2 map (been wanting to get the inlet clean and injector test anyway).   
   Ive always been keen to get a better IC (probably airtec stage 2) for a nice safe consistent setup, and need to change the thermostat so now’s the time to do it.
  So question is: Is there any sense in staying at stage 2, or is it just silly to not get the HPFP as well and go the whole way with it?   I only use the car on the road, and want it to be reliable and last a while. Even with B12s and ALK it seems on the edge of usable traction already anyway. Any thoughts appreciated cheers!



Offline Dave J

  • Won't Shut up.
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 45
  • -Receive: 63
  • Posts: 880
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,55935.0.html
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2018, 11:20:37 pm »
Sounds as though you have a nicely set-up ED30 already. I think you are wise to want the inlet clean & injector test - want to get this done on mine...

I'd say an IC upgrade just helps maintain the best of what the car can do - I can feel the heatsoak on my Stage 1 Revo on summer days. I have a Loba HPFP on mine even at Stage 1 as I read some cars experience fuel cuts. I bought it with an aspiration of going Stage2 or more. However, I think Stage 2 will be enough for me. As I expect you know, Stage 1 is more than enough to overwhelm the front tyres - I have B8's & SALK, so quite similar to yours. The thing that I like is that once you're rolling, the power increase is very noticeable & the in gear performance is massively different. I never launch off the line - it's the in gear power that interests me.

Personally, driveable power is better than peak power. I have read of people saying their car drove better at Stage 2 than 2+. Problem here I guess is personal preference!

Nice choice on the exhaust - if I had my time again I think I'd have gone for BCS...


Edition 30 - no. 1387

Offline Dan_FR

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 132
  • -Receive: 189
  • Posts: 1845
  • wait...what?
    • Email
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 07:28:15 am »
The HPFP unlocks huge torque in the middle of the RPM range and I would say is wholly worth it... However if you are manual, unless you have an almost new clutch or an upgrade, it will likely slip and limit what can be achieved
TFSI... Revo Stage 2+... . WMI.... VCDS HEX + CAN, MPPS, VAG Commander & VAG tacho - South Wales

Offline colesey

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 89
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 09:44:29 am »
If your focus is on midrange drivability and response for road use, then I would stick with stock airbox / upgraded downpipe & hpfp / s3 intercooler.

Offline pudding

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 690
  • Posts: 8353
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 10:18:00 am »
2+ gets a nice big flat spot around 2500-3000rpm when you give the right pedal a full portion of lead.   This is because the K04 is a bit of a sh*t turbo for tuning really.  Stock 0.9 - 1.2 bar (ED30 vs S3) boost is fine as it's under the surge line, but tuners push them to 1.7 - 2 bar, and the way the KO4 spools up, it overwhelms the engine at that VE point at WOT. 

To get around this, tuners peg the boost back in that rpm/load region, hence the big flatty.

You get used to it and learn to drive around it though.  The only fix is a better turbo, which has either a ported shroud, or a bigger compressor wheel to move the surge point.

If you want a long lasting road car engine, I personally would not be running the 400+lbft cylinder pressures R Tech like to cram into these engines, but each to our own.  It's easy to achieve, but not easy to hold indefinitely with stock internals.

APR is the best intercooler, but is also ridiculous money.   As above, an S3 will be a lot better than a GTI one, but again, that was designed for 1.2 bar, not 1.7 - 2 bar.  Running that kind of boost the little cotton reel KO4 is basically a giant hairdryer super soaking the IC.

If I could redo my ED30, I would stay Revo 1 and Ohlins Coilovers, and that's it.  Nothing else.


2007 ED30 | 2009 TDI 140 | 2016 BMW 330D

Offline griff30

  • Taking part
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 9
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 29
    • Email
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 10:07:10 pm »
Cheers fellas. That’s a lot of food for thought...    Got a Helix clutch already so thats not a problem (standard went straight away at stage 1). Most of these comments tend to make me think I don’t want to go the full way with it... 

 Colesy - why stick with standard airbox? Does a CAI (eg. Revo) mess up the response or something? Ive heard you can lose some low end which I wasn’t keen on but could live with if its just a bit. 

Dave - yep the BCS is ace. Nice deep sound when pootling around, but not intrusive at all. Then gives a good roar when you plant it.

Will prob just do IC, possibly intake then ask RTECH to do a nice driveable map when i get the inlet clean done. Spend the money saved on tyres and maybe some handling mods.  Thanks again.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 10:08:52 pm by griff30 »

Offline colesey

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 89
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2018, 06:41:19 am »
Griff, it’s the Bernouli effect - the same mass of air will travel more slowly through a larger pipe. Try have a read of Pudding’s posts over last few months where he has compared stock v Revo v VWR intakes and wasn’t overly impressed by the aftermarket options. Is best you have a chat with Niki about what he can achieve for your driving style and tastes.

Offline pudding

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 690
  • Posts: 8353
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2018, 12:21:52 pm »
What /\ he said. 

All engines have a peak volumetric efficiency, I.e. one rpm where everything marries up perfectly for the strongest torque.   OEM engine designers use specific cam profiles, turbo sizing, exhaust and intake diameters, airbox size, plenum volume, throttle body size etc to make every other rpm around that VE point the best compromise possible.   They also tailor the gearing to suit the torque curve i.e. Honda use very short gearing to increase wheel torque to overcome the engine's low flywheel torque....and so on, and so forth.

The best compromise usually means keeping the gas speed up, both into and out of the engine, which means deliberate restrictions.....which appear counter intuitive to enthusiasts and less experienced tuners.  As soon as you change intake diameter, exhaust diameter, cam profiles, turbo size etc you move that peak torque zone further up the revs, and one thing I have definitely noticed with these bath sponge on a pipe filters is the reduced gas speed at <1750rpm causes a slower, rougher idle, incorrect MAF readings, and a noticeable flattening of the throttle response at low revs.

So to summarise all of that waffle into one easy to digest sentence - aftermarket intakes are good for one thing only: increasing power past 5000rpm.

Claims of 40hp from Revo for their intake (with a 2+ tune) and 25hp+ from Racingline are grossly exaggerated in my opinion, and experience, so take the marketing with a dose of table salt.


2007 ED30 | 2009 TDI 140 | 2016 BMW 330D

Offline griff30

  • Taking part
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 9
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 29
    • Email
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2018, 07:37:00 pm »
Yeah that all makes sense. My understanding of engines/tuning is pretty decent from back in the day, but Ive only learnt anything about turbos since having the golf. I had thought the benefit of the intake would be felt in the midrange as well. If its all over 5k then wont be any benefit most of the time... Ill go and read up on all your posts about intakes later.   
 Thanks thats been a real help and told me what I needed to know. I think you get caught up in the whole process and want to keep making incremental changes, but sometimes they’re not worth it. Power is ace, but Ive said for a while I get more pleasure from the suspension/handling improvements Ive made to the car really. Before, the engine was just overwhelming the car, which doesn’t really feel good. Now its a pretty good balance, and plenty fast enough.
 I think Ill still upgrade the intercooler though - just feel that I want to as its a weak link.

Offline pudding

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 690
  • Posts: 8353
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2018, 09:37:22 am »
Below 5000rpm the engine feels like it's breathing better, but it's probably not a measurable increase on the dyno.  Just a butt dyno feeling thing.   There is real gains at the top end with a half decent intake though, usually in the order of 20-25hp with a good tune.  It does also depend how healthy the engine is, what state the injectors are in, what state the turbo is in etc etc.   Like you say, if you're not regularly blasting it past 5000rpm (virtually impossible where I live) then intakes shouldn't be top of the priority list.  I have tried a few just for the sake of experimentation but I always end up putting the standard one back on because as a daily driver, the area 'under the curve' is more important to me.

100% agree with you on the suspension and handling mods  :happy2:

If you arm yourself with VCDS, you can do some logging to see how badly your current intercooler is heat soaking.   The standard one starts to get at the top end fairly quickly.  An S3 one improves things a good chunk because the core is 40% larger in cross sectional area, without being so big it increases lag to a noticeable degree.  Not too expensive either.  Around £300 from the dealer, vs twice that, minimum, for a decent aftermarket one.




2007 ED30 | 2009 TDI 140 | 2016 BMW 330D

Offline griff30

  • Taking part
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 9
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 29
    • Email
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2018, 07:42:20 pm »
The VCDS is another thing I need to get onto. ive seen you can get fault-reader hand-held machines for peanuts on eBay. I’m not sure if that will show stuff like ther intake temp. Any recommendations? I’m not keen to spend a lot on it really. Some of them just seems to be the interface/connectors and then you use a laptop or phone with software.   Id like to be able to access functions like the central locking options and alarm sensitivity as well.
   
S3 intercooler - plastic end cap one good enough?? That’s what the £300 from dealers one would be right? I think you can use a mk6R one as well.  I was going to get an aftermarket one for twice that, thinking along lines of if youre going to do something do it right.   Perhaps wasted money though.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 10:05:17 pm by griff30 »

Offline pudding

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 690
  • Posts: 8353
Re: Stage 2 or 2+ ???
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2018, 09:39:44 am »
I dunno mate, I use the full blown VCDS because the cheaper options don't do what I want, but if you want something cheap and basic, I like OBD Fusion on the Apple app store (might be android as well).  Just need a Bluetooth OBD dongle.  I used the Carista one which works great.  It's about £20 for both.  I really like the live data Gauges in that app.  Customise them as you like (I made them blue and red so matches the dash at night) and I stick the phone in the middle of the speedo and rev counter.  I monitor boost, intake temp, lambda and a couple of other bits.

It doesn't do VAG specific data pids though, which is a problem with most of these apps.   You could try OBDEleven if you have android.

Yeah that's the one I use, MK6R/S3, both the same.  Seems to do the job well, and don't get hung up on plastic end tanks.  OEM intercoolers have come a long way in the last 2 decades.  It won't be up to the standards of Wagner or APR's intercoolers, but if you're not full throttle everywhere, the S3 is fine.



2007 ED30 | 2009 TDI 140 | 2016 BMW 330D