15K After Chain and Tensioner - Warm Rattle Returns!!

[f00glee]

what about the cam chain adjuster... read a post someone had the chain and everything done but the noise was still there.. turned out to be the adjuster. (apologies if my penny is voided as I have read the full post)

Hi Muff. Possible!

Went to the garage again for a CV boot on Tuesday. Further conversations about what I have done sends us towards the cam chain again. It really is the most likely suspect. Mechanic explained that last time I just asked them to do chain & tensioner, bolt & gaskets only (this is true, I supplied the parts and asked them to fit). Whereas for a full refresh we should have gone with adjuster, and also the cover which houses the vvt solenoid and oil feed, too.

Theoretically then, the adjuster may be why the chain wore to make a noise at 28k in the first place (?), and its started to wear this new chain after 15k too (?). This is just a theory, don't know if its possible!

For now ill keep an eye on adjustment angles through VCDS and monitor the noise. Ill have to live with it for a little while given the high cost (the adjuster kit with cover etc is something like £450 alone, verified by ringing TPS direct!). I'm happy i'm not in immediate danger but ill certainly monitor & get it sorted at some point.

[muff1991]

when doing my Cam Chain & Tensioner job, I got down to the adjuster and took a look at the teeth... seemed like they was worn slightly. how sprockets on bikes wear. not hugely but it looked slightly worn. so I made the decision to change it anyway while I was there with the mind state of "if I'm doing it, I may as well do It all" so that's what I did! and yes it did hurt spending over £400 on a tiny Genuine Adjuster. but... its all done now and runs lovely (from that side of things anyway). its a tough decision, because like most silly noises like this.. its hard to guarantee that is what's causing it! and you don't want to waste £400! well I wouldn't want to! did you use a cheap chain kit or a genuine kit?

[f00glee]

As always - genuine!

[pudding]

Run an output test on the VVT phaser with VCDS.  If there are any strange noises during the test cycle, it's probably worth replacing it.

[pudding]

@f00glee hi mate. Did you get to the bottom of this?

I’ve had a persistent rattle when hot diagnosed as very likely to be a worn oil pump chain/tensioner.  The noise occurs around 1000rpm at idle continues as a rattling/grinding noise up to around 1700rm when pulling away. As per yours, it’s silent when cold.

We stethoscoped the entire drivetrain and it did initially sound like it was the cam chain, but we discovered it was significantly louder near the crank pulley. We suspect the loose chain is causing excessive gear lash in the balancer assembly, which is transmitted through the whole engine.

Just wondering if that was indeed your issue?

[mjmallia]

I had something similar when warm/hot.

I had the the chain and tensioner changed a couple of years ago, but a noise started recently on idle or if blipped like a chain rattle issue.

Ended up being one of the three cam plate seals had a small section break off.......changed them out and all noise disappeared.

[muff1991]

I had something similar when warm/hot.

I had the the chain and tensioner changed a couple of years ago, but a noise started recently on idle or if blipped like a chain rattle issue.

Ended up being one of the three cam plate seals had a small section brake off.......changed them out and all noise disappeared.

must not of been making the correct oil pressure, i never changed my seals on the over, as at the time they was unavailable to buy loose, and had to buy the whole cam cover.. which i wasn't going to do.
Turns out, you can now buy those 3 seals easily :)

[mjmallia]

Yes the seals are about £30 from TPS.

Not enough oil was getting to the tensioner on the idle stage......one of the seals had a 5mm part missing.

We never did find that missing small plastic section that broke off.

[mjmallia]

VW UK do not list the part number as a spare, but gave them the part number and there are loads in stock......they are trying to get people to buy the whole cam cover plate at £400 odd

Rings part number is

06F 198 107A

[f00glee]

@f00glee hi mate. Did you get to the bottom of this?

I’ve had a persistent rattle when hot diagnosed as very likely to be a worn oil pump chain/tensioner.  The noise occurs around 1000rpm at idle continues as a rattling/grinding noise up to around 1700rm when pulling away. As per yours, it’s silent when cold.

We stethoscoped the entire drivetrain and it did initially sound like it was the cam chain, but we discovered it was significantly louder near the crank pulley. We suspect the loose chain is causing excessive gear lash in the balancer assembly, which is transmitted through the whole engine.

Just wondering if that was indeed your issue?

Hi Pudding,

Nope, never fixed this one - didn't ever go through with the inspection and still just living with it - not gotten any worse. Had AKS have a listen and they're not sure whats happening but have confirmed it doesn't sound like too much to worry about (i.e. I'm being fussy!).

Getting a new DMF and clutch in on 1st Sept. Will ask them to scout about again depending on what is/isn't solved by this work. I know the flywheel is clattering about due to my transmission "slop" and so who's to say some of this noise isn't coming from there, too. I have found one mention on a forum somewhere of someone having a warm idle sound which was solved by a DMF change - fingers crossed! Interesting comment about the balance shaft bit as I've also, since having engine mount inserts last year, got  a vibration through the steering wheel on overrun at 2k or 4krpm, or just holding these revs in neutral, less noticeable under load. Did wonder if this could be balance shaft related; perhaps always there just amplified since the inserts have gone in. AKS again recommended seeing what we have after the flywheel.

@mjmallia how difficult is it to inspect/change these seals you mention?

[pudding]

VW UK do not list the part number as a spare, but gave them the part number and there are loads in stock......they are trying to get people to buy the whole cam cover plate at £400 odd

Rings part number is

06F 198 107A

Ah OK, yes they are just the VVT oil control rings.  I thought you were talking about the cam girdle when you said cam cover.  I replaced those on mine recently.

[pudding]

@f00glee hi mate. Did you get to the bottom of this?

I’ve had a persistent rattle when hot diagnosed as very likely to be a worn oil pump chain/tensioner.  The noise occurs around 1000rpm at idle continues as a rattling/grinding noise up to around 1700rm when pulling away. As per yours, it’s silent when cold.

We stethoscoped the entire drivetrain and it did initially sound like it was the cam chain, but we discovered it was significantly louder near the crank pulley. We suspect the loose chain is causing excessive gear lash in the balancer assembly, which is transmitted through the whole engine.

Just wondering if that was indeed your issue?

Hi Pudding,

Nope, never fixed this one - didn't ever go through with the inspection and still just living with it - not gotten any worse. Had AKS have a listen and they're not sure whats happening but have confirmed it doesn't sound like too much to worry about (i.e. I'm being fussy!).

Getting a new DMF and clutch in on 1st Sept. Will ask them to scout about again depending on what is/isn't solved by this work. I know the flywheel is clattering about due to my transmission "slop" and so who's to say some of this noise isn't coming from there, too. I have found one mention on a forum somewhere of someone having a warm idle sound which was solved by a DMF change - fingers crossed! Interesting comment about the balance shaft bit as I've also, since having engine mount inserts last year, got  a vibration through the steering wheel on overrun at 2k or 4krpm, or just holding these revs in neutral, less noticeable under load. Did wonder if this could be balance shaft related; perhaps always there just amplified since the inserts have gone in. AKS again recommended seeing what we have after the flywheel.

@mjmallia how difficult is it to inspect/change these seals you mention?

OK cool, well I'll let you know if replacing the oil pump chain & tensioner solves my noise. I actually think it's the plastic chain cover that has detached and is rubbing on the chain, but I'll know for sure soon enough!

Yes I took my engine mount inserts out.  The NVH was doing my head in.  The inserts also massively increased the volume of the rattle, so double the reason to take the stupid things out! Since they've been out, I've not missed them one bit.  Much quieter and smoother and no noticeable reduction in shift quality.

I also had a vibration on overrun as you describe.  That went away with a new gearbox, but it was always there, with OEM and aftermarket engine mounts.