Power numbers UK vs Australia ed30/pirelli

[PirelliAu]

Hey guys,
I'm from down under, and here in Australia we didnt get the ed30s, but we did get pirelli editions (mechanically the same). Anyways, I was just reading up numbers you guys are getting in UK and they are ranging from 330-380bhp for a basic stage 2+ which is pretty insane numbers. Over here our dynoes are only reading 200-230kw atw (270-310bhp) for a good stage 2+ tune done by a reputable company like APR, REVO, etuners etc (we dont have r-tech down here unfortunatley). Anyone know why the large difference in readings may be? Is it the dynoes, or are the guys at R-Tech really just gods that are able to push 50-80 more bhp on the same setup from our local tuners. Surely there is only so much more power that can be made with a ecu flash regarless of who. Keen to hear your guys opinions on this. Cheers.

[LC5F]

Dyno’s vary a lot, some conservative, some more generous.
From comments on here, I understand the R-tech one is the generous group.

[colesey]

It could also be down to being able to run more timing advance here in UK with 99 octane fuel and lower temperatures. Many tuners here get their best ‘headline’ numbers in winter.

Tbh the absolutes aren’t as important as the %age improvements being achieved and drivability.

[pudding]

Australia has 98 octane and considerably better access to E85 than the UK.  Their temperatures aren't THAT hot either, can hit single figures in their cold seasons in some regions.

It comes down to a lot of bullsh*t. Remappers are like the media....fake news to garner more sales.  380hp from a K04 is laughable along with unfeasible in the laws of physics, but people still buy into it because they don't know any different.

BMEP and turbo flow are what they are, and yet people constantly believe the BS dyno figures over science     Dynos are incredibly easily to manipulate to give sales generating numbers, but it's always the same.....those who question the scene figures are heretics and naysayers.

310-330hp is about right for a tuned stock K04, and indeed 330hp is the figure VW motorsport themselves quote as a maximum safe limit for the CDL (S3) engine.  Extracting an additional 50+hp from there, from thin air, just has to raise questions in your mind.  Turbos can't suddenly muster up an additonal 30% more flow from nowhere, so if the numbers seem overly optimistic to you, they are.  Trust your instincts.  Why would a car manufacturer leave 100+hp tuning headroom in their engines when a smaller turbo and more conservative tune would suffice and save them money? 

Look what measures Audi took to raise the AAX, BYP engine from 200hp to 265hp.  Bigger turbo, bigger intercooler, bigger injectors, more HPFP lift, different cams, different mapping, stronger pistons, better piston rings, lower compression, thicker wrist pins, 4 bolt mains, harder cylinder head etc etc.  All that for 'just' 65hp.  If it was just as easy as running the K03 at a higher boost pressure, why didn't they just do that themselves and save themselves a f'ck ton of money?  I'll tell you why....because they know how to build and tune an engine.  Remappers only know how to wring an engine's neck and don't care about life span.

I've personally experimented with running a K04 flat out, and beyond, and the results are far from satisfactory.  Yes you can get silly torque as a short term spike, but it doesn't and can't hold it, because it's a tiny little cotton reel turbo feeding a fairly restrictive and basic 2 litre engine.  Let's get real.

Mate.....330 is all the K04 can deliver.  Anything above that, especially on a rolling road, is utter bollocks.

And Kudos to the Ozzies for measuring power how it is, in KW @ the tyres.  None of this marketing 'brake' horsepower flannel 

[Trav Turbo]

Think your find that Revo, Apr are generic maps meaning thousands worldwide ko4 stage 2 plus car all have the exact same file map which is why 310-330bhp is the maximum so Revo & Apr covers themselves allowing way more headroom than actually needed and the car ain't really worked hard. So a car with low mileage well maintained and another car that's been used and abused with higher mileage will both have same figures running Stage 2 plus maps. The maps will give you boost power spike increase lower gears and gradually ease off power in higher gears. R-tech maps are custom maps which is why they make more power over generic maps, power output varies depending on the health of engine, fuelling and turbo ect to each individual car, they do full engine health checks before it even gets on the dyno and if anything is not up to their standard they would fix the problem if they have the parts in stock if not they will send people away to sort it out before getting on their dyno. They then custom map a car finding where the car is best happy in performance & number 1 rule is to make is safe at the same time allowing headroom and not ringing it's neck. I seen many people who have had cars and still own cars with R-tech maps and they have a very good reputation in the TFSI platform cause not many tuners custom map them.

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[pudding]

Oh man, when will this custom vs generic misinformation ever end?  How 'custom' do you think R-Tech's maps really are?  What do they adjust?  Timing, fuel, boost.   What do you think Revo, APR et al adjust?  Timing, fuel, boost.  Do you really think every car they get in is tuned from scratch?  They just copy on the same map they upload to 100s of other cars and just tweak a few things as necessary on the dyno.  'Custom' is not adjusting the same old parameters every other tuner adjusts. 

'Custom' is tuning from scratch to suit a specific hardware configuration.  There is nothing 'custom' about any stock turboed GTI.

The actual difference between tuners is the timing aggression and boost pressure.  These engines rely on boost to make any kind of power.  If Revo run their Stage 2+ at 1.7 bar boost and R-Tech run 2 bar boost.....doesn't take a genius to figure out where the extra power is coming from.  But 2 bar boost is waaaaaay beyond the turbo's efficiency zone and it just bakes the intercooler, but hey, so long as the faked dyno figures please the masses, it's all that matters.

I do agree though, if the engine is down on compression from wear, you can cram all the boost in the world into it and it won't make the expected numbers....but at the same time, over loading a stock engine tends to break ring lands, which really does ruin your day.  Plenty of stories of busted pistons on Facebook from over tuned engines, which is what you get from shoving all that the turbo is capable of in one lump too soon, hence all the K04 flat spots around 3000rpm.

[Trav Turbo]

To be honest I've never seen a R-tech mapped car run 2 bar of boost on a K04 and mine is mapped by R-tech and mine don't run 2 bar of boost nowhere near that lol. And none of the my mates car do either and all power figures all varies on each car. One of my mates got a Golf R Mk6 mapped by TSR custom map fully forged engine, GTX3076R Turbo pushing  532bhp and that doesn't run 2 bar of boost either as to leave headroom and not blow up the engine. I'm not sure who or where you seen custom tuners run 2 bar of boost but the ones I know of and had experience with hasn't. There are different ways to tune a car not just ramping up boost to get numbers. I was going to get a Revo map myself after having it on a previous car, it was decent map but found going in another car the same with less mods went near enough the same which had me thinking was it really worth the extra mods lol. With R-tech being half the price of REVO and getting 5 selectable maps each with different power and torque figures, hard cut limiter, unique custom traction & NLS all custom mapped in made sense to go that route. 38k miles later its been fine since.

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[PirelliAu]

Pudding's info seems accurate. I've spoken to several tuners and they all say along the same lines as what you said above. I 100% agree with you. Even if R-Tech is dynoing ed30s at an average of 380bhp, I gaurantee on the same dyno an apr/revo ed30 will also be close to those power figures. The reason why APR and REVO are so popular are because the tunes are devloped from scratch and tested to death to be as safe as possible for every single engine coming out of the manufaturer. APR/REVO might have that steep price tag but thats cause you are paying for the devleopment and research going into their tunes. They make great products. Reputable Custom tuners are fine too but there is only a certain extra hp they can push the car safely too. Custom tuners claiming 50-100 more hp from the same APR/REVO tune is fake news. Put them on the same dyno and you might see a max of 30hp increase on a safe tune.