Adding negative camber

[Ess_Three]

Not sure if this should be in here, or in the 'Modifications & Technical'...so i'll try here:

Are the balljoints on the GTI adjustable to gain a bit of extra negative camber?

Or is it a straight step to either a bottom arm mod, or an adjustable top mount?

Cheers,
Glen.

[Top Cat]

Danza is the best for this advice, but i think you cant get any camber unless you fit top mounts or the S3 lower arms which give an extra 0.5 degree. You can on the back but its not advised to add any camber there unless you want to ruin your handling, you could get away with a little bit on the back but not much. 

Oh forgot you can add some static camber with the walk kit. 

[tony_danza]

Why do you want camber? For handling or to get some wheels tucked in the arches?

[Ess_Three]

Why do you want camber? For handling or to get some wheels tucked in the arches?

Purely for grip, I can assure you. No scene queen here...

It's just a tweak I normally end up doing to every car...add a little front negative to help with my driving style.
I normally end up around -1.5 static, after a few days and an infra red temperature gun...but no so easy on these new fangled Golfs.

[Ess_Three]

Danza is the best for this advice, but i think you cant get any camber unless you fit top mounts or the S3 lower arms which give an extra 0.5 degree. You can on the back but its not advised to add any camber there unless you want to ruin your handling, you could get away with a little bit on the back but not much. 

Oh forgot you can add some static camber with the walk kit. 

Even on a fully adjustable car I've only ever ended up with -0.5 per side on the rear...so not so bothered about that.

The front would be handy if I could play about.

"walk kit" ?

[Top Cat]

Danza is the best for this advice, but i think you cant get any camber unless you fit top mounts or the S3 lower arms which give an extra 0.5 degree. You can on the back but its not advised to add any camber there unless you want to ruin your handling, you could get away with a little bit on the back but not much. 

Oh forgot you can add some static camber with the walk kit. 

Even on a fully adjustable car I've only ever ended up with -0.5 per side on the rear...so not so bothered about that.

The front would be handy if I could play about.

"walk kit" ?

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,395.0.html   

[tony_danza]

S3 wishbones will give 0.5 additional camber (which is plenty to be fair) and because you're getting it from the bottom of the strut, it's less likely to naff the rollcentre with you dropping the ride height too (I imagine you are). Upwards from there, Whiteline do camber/caster adjustable topmounts for a couple of hundred pounds that are very good...

WALK gives added static caster, which in turn provides dynamic camber. Think caster for road, camber for track, that way you're not shredding tyres on the motorway  

You can always increase front grip by taking it away from the rear too, there's masses of camber on the back and it just makes the nose push wide - stand them up with no toe.

[laurent.d]

Morego extended lower arms, definitly don't look high tech but give about 2° of négative camber and work very well.
Finally, I will keep them as TT arms give less negative camber.

Otherwise, VWR provide adjustable front arms bushes which work like WALK kit.
I will get them on my car aswell.

[Ess_Three]

S3 wishbones will give 0.5 additional camber (which is plenty to be fair) and because you're getting it from the bottom of the strut, it's less likely to naff the rollcentre with you dropping the ride height too (I imagine you are). Upwards from there, Whiteline do camber/caster adjustable topmounts for a couple of hundred pounds that are very good...

Cheers...I'll investigate those.
Lowered 20mm ish on VWR springs.

S3 lower arms may be just the things. Around -0.5 extra should give what I'm looking for.

WALK gives added static caster, which in turn provides dynamic camber. Think caster for road, camber for track, that way you're not shredding tyres on the motorway  

I normally try to get as much additional caster as I can too.
But, I still scrub the outer edges of the tyres, so need to add more negative camber.

Generally, I settle out around -1.5 degrees of static camber with a little toe out, and get equal tyre wear.

No motorways within 100 miles of me...so it's A and B roads...and a set up to reflect.
I will happily concede some inner wear on boring motorway journeys for added corner grip on back roads.
It's not a track biased set-up I'm after, just a fairly aggressive road set up giving a more precise turn in.

 

You can always increase front grip by taking it away from the rear too, there's masses of camber on the back and it just makes the nose push wide - stand them up with no toe.

What's standard at the rear?
Any idea?

I'd normally aim to start about -0.5 degrees per side, and go from there?
Is the rear adjustable standard?
Or are aftermarket parts required?

Thanks in advance,
Glen.

[tony_danza]

Toe out is aggresive on standard bushes, you'll be getting loads more under acceleration through that rear one flexing too as it's pretty much made of jelly - fair play if it's only battering twisties though... Alfa-tastic! 

I'd go S3 and the WALK for the caster and see how you get on from there. Some ARBs may help with your footprint too.

Rears, there's some adjustment, try 0.5 less than the fronts. I don't know the stock setting and it changes with ride height too... it will make the back loose though, so only do it is that's your driving style.

[Ess_Three]

Toe out is aggresive on standard bushes, you'll be getting loads more under acceleration through that rear one flexing too as it's pretty much made of jelly - fair play if it's only battering twisties though... Alfa-tastic! 

Yeah, I don't mind it dancing about a bit under hard accelleration in exchange for more feel, grip and confidence in the corners.
Good fun on the twisty stuff. 

My driving style isn't good for tyre life anyway...normally scrubbing the hell out of the outsides - camber and toe out give me the 'feel' I want and usually give fairly equal overall wear on local roads.

I'll kill the insides on multiple long runs though....but I don't do many.

I'd go S3 and the WALK for the caster and see how you get on from there. Some ARBs may help with your footprint too.

S3 arms + WALK sound like a good start.
S3 arms have some adjustment anyway, don't they (0.2 - 0.3 degrees maybe)?
My 8L certainly did.

Rears, there's some adjustment, try 0.5 less than the fronts. I don't know the stock setting and it changes with ride height too... it will make the back loose though, so only do it is that's your driving style.

Acknowledging that all chassis are different, but having to start somewhere, I was looking at this as a base:
-1.5 degrees per side F, with 2 mins toe out per side.
-0.5 degrees per side R, with parallel toe.

I'd rather not have the rear loose...that carry on cost me an Integra Type-R back in 2000.

[tony_danza]

I approve of your commitment!

Yeah, I think there's an elipsical bolt in there for small adjustments. I'm still gathering parts at the moment to convert mine, so haven't seen with my own eyes. I have got the alloy hubs though.

Your settings sound fine to me, your front toe is accounting for the WALK/poly front bush?? as you'll get little or no extra movement accelerating.

A Golf is no Type R in terms of lift off oversteer.. mine slides nice and progressively and only when I induce it with similar set up (although I run a fraction toe in), the missus drives it occasionally and I don't want her in a hedge!

[Ess_Three]

I approve of your commitment!

Why thank you...

Now I better come clean...it's going to be for a Mk5.5 
But I am not aware of any fundamanetal differences...although my copy of ETKA is a shade too old to allow me to verify everything.

Apart from fancy dampers and a half-arsed attempt at an electronic LSD (Ha! - posh traction control) it's just a Mk5 in a differend suit.

Yeah, I think there's an elipsical bolt in there for small adjustments. I'm still gathering parts at the moment to convert mine, so haven't seen with my own eyes. I have got the alloy hubs though.

Certainly the 8L alloy arms there was (10-12mm slot)...and enough meat for those confident with a round file to get another 3-4mm without breaking into sweat.

Your settings sound fine to me, your front toe is accounting for the WALK/poly front bush?? as you'll get little or no extra movement accelerating.

I'd be happy with a little toe out, and no changes.
I have run 4 mins toe out per side...but that's a tad lively in the wet!
I think 2 mins toe out per side will liven up the steering and give a little confidence, without going bonkers.

I'll have to play though...
I'm just looking for a starting point to begin with...this 'modern' VW stuff is new territory for me.

I think I'll investigate S3 arms/balljoints and the WALK kit.
Are S3/TT arms the same?

I'd be tempted to buy and modify the arms to elongate the balljoint slots, ready the WALK kit and see about Poly Bushing the other arm mount at the same time.
That should give me long enough to have some meaningful tyre temperature data and have played with the tyre pressures.

A Golf is no Type R in terms of lift off oversteer.. mine slides nice and progressively and only when I induce it with similar set up (although I run a fraction toe in), the missus drives it occasionally and I don't want her in a hedge!

My ITR was steady as a rock, and utterly predictable, even on JDM dampers, Eibach springs, Mugen 'big' ARBs and Comptech adjustable front arms (swapped over to give massive caster gains) and could be lift off oversteered on the track, wet or dry, slicks or wets...
However, a wet February morning combined with mud on the road resulted in the mother of all 'tank slappers' and one wrecked ITR.

I set my cars up a little more benign now.

[tony_danza]

Ahh, now I seem to remember the Mk5.5 has had a bit of a backwards step and uses a pressed steel wishbone, rather than the cast version on the MK5 GTI - so you'll get a bit of benefit in weight saving and strength alone... the camber is a bonus.

I'd certainly be interested in hearing how you get on with wishbone mods and tweaking the geo, if you've got the means to do so then it's ideal. I'm fairly sure the S3/TT arm is the same, but it may be worth double checking.

I'll stick up a picture of my front tyre from Rockingham a few weeks ago so you can see the wear, but basically I've found it works best at 31PSI on my PSCups, maybe 1 or 2PSI higher if you're running nitrogen. I'm getting no scuffing near the sidewalls, just a nice flat contact patch. That's with WALK, coilovers and uprated ARBs.

Now they've got near slick stiff sidewalls, on a road tyre on track I notice the lack of camber a lot more.

Bummer on the ITR, you can't account for idiots sadly and I bet no farmers were willing to hold their hands up to that one. Diesel is as bad.

[Ess_Three]

Ahh, now I seem to remember the Mk5.5 has had a bit of a backwards step and uses a pressed steel wishbone, rather than the cast version on the MK5 GTI - so you'll get a bit of benefit in weight saving and strength alone... the camber is a bonus.

Can't say I'm overly concerned about the difference in strength, or the few lbs saved when looked at in contect to the weight of the car, but the camber adjustment I could do with.
I'll look into it.

I don't suppose anyone has a pic of the front suspension set-up of a Mk5 GTI to hand do they?

I'd certainly be interested in hearing how you get on with wishbone mods and tweaking the geo, if you've got the means to do so then it's ideal. I'm fairly sure the S3/TT arm is the same, but it may be worth double checking.

Yeah, I'd rather know than drop hundereds into more expensive paperweights - I have a garage full of 'stuff' already!

I have a mate who works at a damn good machining company - so welding/milling etc are no problem.
I could make new arms if need be...but I'm not sure I'd trust them!

I'll stick up a picture of my front tyre from Rockingham a few weeks ago so you can see the wear, but basically I've found it works best at 31PSI on my PSCups, maybe 1 or 2PSI higher if you're running nitrogen. I'm getting no scuffing near the sidewalls, just a nice flat contact patch. That's with WALK, coilovers and uprated ARBs.

Now they've got near slick stiff sidewalls, on a road tyre on track I notice the lack of camber a lot more.

What's standard pressures?
I tend to start at a couple of PSI under standard at the front, and go for the fully loaded rear pressure.
That's road tyres though...

I'll not be going down the coilovers route...VWR springs, ACC dampers and maybe an ARB swap later on...that'll be it.

Bummer on the ITR, you can't account for idiots sadly and I bet no farmers were willing to hold their hands up to that one. Diesel is as bad.

It was for the best, methinks. I was a menace in it!
Low sun, wet road...and missed the mud. Rear stepped out, fishtailed, power on, hit the limiter, followed by the lock-stops, spun it into an embankment, flipped it right over and back onto it's wheels destroying 3 corners and twisting the 'shell.
Heavy impact too:

That was the end of that.

Then spent the next 3 years trying to make an 8L S3 as interesting to drive as the ITR. And failed.
It was fast, and handled brilliantly. But it was dull as dishwater.