Brake pads for track days

[fuscobal]

In about 1 month I will be heading for Nurburgring so I need some pads to really handle it. I will be staying there for 4 days and probably do some 15 laps wich means approx. 300kms. Now I have the DS2500s but they are of light track use and can get fade while stopping from high speed like on the mighty ring. From what I read, from Ferodo's lineup, the only pads made for R32/S3 caliper would be DS2500 and DS1.11 (these are made on special order of min 5 sets so the dealer might not want to order them if he doesn't have enough demand). Another pad getting rave review would be the Carbone Lorraine RC5, 6 and 8. These are sintered pads that offer incredible amount of grip and what's the most important have constant bite from cold to extreme temperatures ( I can go with these from home to the ring but hopefully police won't stop me for the noise :) ). They also seem to induce very low judder on the rottors wich is also good but they squeal pretty bad and wear rotors faster of-course. Unfortunately they are not made for R32/S3 caliper, only for standard GTI caliper. Hawk HPS seem to be very bad, worse than DS2500 and HP+ on par with DS2500 but with more dust. Some other highly regarded pads would be the Carbotech XP8, 10, 12 and 16 wich are all made for R32 caliper. Here's a link where they give rankings for dust, noise and bite >

http://www.essexparts.com/catalogsea...e_add_to_cart=

So, the pad must meet the following >

- High to very high friction coefficient (not the highest but something considerably better than DS2500)
- Dust > doesn't matter
- Noise > can squeal a little but not like a train
- Good cold bite
- Decent pad wear and rotor wear (I would be happy if the pads will last min 500km of track use but the discs much last much longer since I use them on the street)

PS : As u can see in the sig, discs are Tarox F2000

Any other recommendations of a pad to meet my demands ?

[DaveB@Vagbremtechnic]

Thats pretty much the pad that the manufacturers have been trying to make for 30 years since asbestos was banned !!!!!

You need to make compomises somewhere....

Alternatively stick some normal road pads for the Journey and then swap them out for M1166's at the track. M1166 is an old touring car compound before they went to F5 through to F1, they're cheaper than DS2500 wont stop you from cold, will squeal like a pig, will last many laps and stop you amazingly well. I think the part number is MDB2604M1166 google that and you'll find a supplier - if you struggle I can get them. Budget on under £100

Forgot to PM you  sorry mate    the Red S3 rears are £250

[fuscobal]

Cool, the price seem fair. Please send me the paypal and details on PM because I want them :)

Dave, do you think Carbotech XP10 for example would be too much if I carefully drive from Home to Nurburgring (about 2000kms) ? They advise them as not too noisy and they also say the dust won't affect the rims. It's ok to wear faster. Last year I've been with the same brakes (OEM discs instead of Tarox) and DS2500 pads. After 100kms of use, the pads were like new !

[DaveB@Vagbremtechnic]

I've not heard anybody talking about the Carbotech XP10  - if they are Carbon Metallic becasue of the way that the pad interacts with the disc then you will contaminate the discs and they will not work with non CM pads in the future so you need a set of rotors for CM pads and a set of rotors for Non CM pads.

Again I'd strongly reccomend not going for a compromise setup  - we recently did some very strong brakes on a Bora over on the uk-mkivs forum, the quality of the brakes and the fact that 15-20 laps at a time were available with the brakes getting better made a huge difference as to how the driver was progressing, when you can string 10 laps or more together at a time you get in the groove and get faster. If you are stopping every 4-5 laps for your OEM brakes/DS pads to get cool then thats the weakest link.

On the back of the fact they could get 10-20 laps in without fade, three guys clubbed together to buy a track car  - the build is a good read.

http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/330392.aspx?PageIndex=1

All the problems and compromises you wish to make are because you wish to use the pads on the road..... noise/dust/operating temperature....swap the pads trackside and have a better trackday - you could do it in 25 minutes per corner with practise!!!

[fuscobal]

Here's the pads >

http://www.ctbrakes.com/pads.asp?Make=Volkswagen&Model=Golf_R32

Hre's the general description >

http://www.ctbrakes.com/faqs.asp#compounds1

"Carbotechâ„¢ XP10â„¢ (1110â„¢)
When Carbotech unleashed the XP10™ to the general public, and it was an instant success, gathering multiple regional, divisional, and national championships. The XP10™ is a very high initial bite friction material, with a coefficient of friction and rotor friendliness unmatched in the industry. Fade resistance is in excess of 1650°F. Due to the high level of friction and bite, this material is recommended for cars weighing around 2,000lbs or more, not including formula cars and cars with brake bias bars weighing less than 2,000lbs. This is the preferred compound for the front of Spec Miata racers, SSC,SSB, T3, SRF, ITS, ITE, H1,H2, H3, H4, 944 Cup, ST, GS, Factory Five Cobra’s and many more Grand-Am/ALMS/SCCA/NASA classes. XP10™ is also ideal for advanced/instructor level HPDE drivers. XP10™ still maintains the highly praised release and excellent modulation, rotor friendliness, and 100% non-corrosive dust that have made all Carbotech compounds so successful. XP10™ is not recommended as a daily-driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. "

"2. Do I have to resurface (turn) the rotors, or get new rotors?
If you have had another manufacturers brake pads on those same rotors; then you will ABSOLUTELY have to replace or resurface (turn) those rotors before installing the Carbotech brake pads.

If the rotors and drums are in relatively good condition, meaning they are smooth, flat,  with no visible cracks, deep scoring, distorted, and with no other visible damage; and you have ONLY had Carbotech brake pads on them, then they do not have to be resurfaced or replaced "


I would swap the pads at the track (my mechanic will also be with me there) but I have to lift the car and I don't know if the OEM skinny elevator is good for the task !

[tony_danza]

What Dave said about Carbotech is correct (similar pads with the same CM material likewise). Use them on new/reground or skimmed discs, or at the very, very least fully clean everything off them with garnet paper... they'll still judder for a while though until the pads remove the invisible stuff. I failed to clean mine enough and it took me half a day on track to stop them juddering, you have to try and kill them to build up enough heat for the pads to remove all contaminents.

You won't need more than an XP8, trust me. The 'Ring although requiring big braking, leaves plenty of time in between for cooling. I use these on mine and I've had the discs glowing without them fading.

Carbonne Lorraine is very serious stuff. I have a spare set of discs and some RC6's, but I can only use them on hot, dry track days as they beat the ABS. They will mince discs.

Look at Performance Friction too.

For non CM compounds Mintex are perfectly good, Pagids are supreme but twice the price, DS2500's I'm not keen on as they're full of clay and resin that causes judder if you cook them. EBC yellows whilst lacking feel do the job cheaply.

Oh, and to stop squealing, get some 3m anti vibration backing and stick it on the pads... works fine for me  

[fuscobal]

Found Mintex MDB2604M1166 for 122 liras wich would be about the same as Carbotech XP10. I wonder how Ferodo DS1.11 would do against these 2 ? (Ferodo is easier to buy in my country, for the rest of them I'll have to look abroad) !

[john_o]

top thread guys 

[fuscobal]

What Dave said about Carbotech is correct (similar pads with the same CM material likewise). Use them on new/reground or skimmed discs, or at the very, very least fully clean everything off them with garnet paper... they'll still judder for a while though until the pads remove the invisible stuff. I failed to clean mine enough and it took me half a day on track to stop them juddering, you have to try and kill them to build up enough heat for the pads to remove all contaminents.

You won't need more than an XP8, trust me. The 'Ring although requiring big braking, leaves plenty of time in between for cooling. I use these on mine and I've had the discs glowing without them fading.

Carbonne Lorraine is very serious stuff. I have a spare set of discs and some RC6's, but I can only use them on hot, dry track days as they beat the ABS. They will mince discs.

Look at Performance Friction too.

For non CM compounds Mintex are perfectly good, Pagids are supreme but twice the price, DS2500's I'm not keen on as they're full of clay and resin that causes judder if you cook them. EBC yellows whilst lacking feel do the job cheaply.

Oh, and to stop squealing, get some 3m anti vibration backing and stick it on the pads... works fine for me  

I could only find some 3M tape that works on low temperature. Can you provide me a link please ?
I've already experienced judder with DS2500 on some very fast mountain roads wich means I went over their capacity and deformed the rotors probably !

[fuscobal]

Mike from Carbotech said XP8 are the equivalent of DS2500 and XP10 the equiv of DS3000. He sais they can be used on street since they have good cold byte (I've also noticed very good cold bite from CL RC6 in the past). He also said the noise is decent and recommended XP10 for the fronts and XP8 for the rear as long as brake ducts if possible. My car with me and a passenger weighs 1700kg (3750lbs) and this is also very important on how the brakes work !

[Hurdy]

I've just bought some TAROX Rallye+ pads for my TAROX F2000 discs, for use at the Nurburgring on April 19th. Not fitted them yet, but should do nicely. I spoke on the phone to Nick at TAROX and he says that they are between DS2500 and DS3000 pads in terms of operation, with good initial bite and low wear rates.

http://www.tarox.com/en/401.php

[fuscobal]

Cool Hurdy. I will be at the Ring 2 weekes later than you with the same F2000 on front but probably with Carbotech XP10 wich are in the DS3000 league !

[Hurdy]

I could have gone for the Corsa+ pads again, which are equivalent to the DS3000's, but I find them a little too harsh for every day use. They are superb at doing what they do, but I've literally taken mm's off my discs since October. I may still consider them as a swap for specific trackdays, but won't use them again for daily driver useage.

[fuscobal]

Hey Hurdy, how does one change the pads/discs at the ring ? Can it be done safely with just the small elevator of our cars (don't know the word for the one that goes in the trunk, inside the spare wheel) or do I need to find a ramp there at a service ? (at the track I haven't seen too many services, just the big fast-food and some shops like souvenirs and Bilstein)

[Hurdy]

Hi Fuscobal,

I have a full GT34 10 pot TAROX brake and caliper set-up, with 2 piece F2000 discs and alloy bells. The discs would be a Nightmare to change on mine as there are around 15 bolts on each disc and they have to be torqued up to 15nm each in a specific order. The pads however are a piece of p!ss as it only takes 2 bolts to get out the worn pads and then the brake cylinders are simply push back ones (unlike the OEM ones which need to be screwed out!). I reckon once I have the front wheel off I could do the full pad change in 10 mins a side or less on mine.

The small jack in the boot will be sufficient to change out the pads, but I wouldn't like to change the discs on it. I'd prefer to at least have a trolley jack and axle stands as there is an awful lot of torque appled to the bolts in the back of the discs, so the small jack isn't a good idea.
There are loads of people there on any given weekend and some do take axle stands etc with them. As you may suspect, there are quite a few car services locally around the 'ring, but not having used one I couldn't tell you what prices etc would be.
RSR Nurburg are nearby and have their own garage and servicing and maybe able to help you (they are English too!). They don't usually do servicing or let ramps, but would definitely be able to help you find a helpful local service garage.

http://www.rsrnurburg.com/