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Author Topic: Very budget track build  (Read 72478 times)

Offline Clarkj93

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #195 on: April 10, 2023, 08:30:55 am »
£300 is pretty good  :happy2: Much better than the UK outfits that want £1000 to rebuild Ohlins coilovers  :stupid: :grin: Needless to say, they are still rotting in my parts cupboard  :grin:  I might sneak them onto the MK6 TDI when the missus isn't looking  :grin:  Also got the MK7.5R front brakes to chuck on as well  :grin:

Yeah I reckon they've addressed the quality issues by now.  It was circa 2006 I got a set and they hadn't been in operation that long at that point. Yeah I used the Comp brake top mounts on my Corrado many moons ago.  I would recommend switching out the spherical bearings for NMB or Aurora (Merlin Motorsport sell them) as the ones supplied in mine only lasted 1000 miles  :grin:

Yeah exactly, those lengths are what it takes merely to run a car low whilst keeping the roll centre where it needs to be  :happy2:  It's a hell of a lot of changes over a Golf! The TT is easily the sportiest setup car of the Golf platform cars  :happy2:

 :grin:  Oh well, I guess all that faff is what we pay someone else to figure out  :grin:

Surprised you have not flogged the Ohlins yet! Lots of grubby hand would love to a get a bargain on a set of them I bet.

Yeah It did come to mind that such a well priced top mount might have crappy bearings :grin: I did note that the sleeve nut on one side would not slide into the bearing with a bit of a thwack compared to the other side so that was a slight hint  :grin: For under £200 though what can you expect, still great value.

Yeah, the "hairdresser's car" that every loves to say actually has some really cool engineer-y bits on it.

Did just whip to Halfords yesterday on saturday and stuck a 063 battery in, classic Ford Fiesta/Vauxhall Corsa style battery, runs absolutely fine with it. Weighed the new one in at 10.3kg, the old one at 16.7kg, it may be heavier than that when new as it has leaked a bit but a minimum weight saving of 6.4kg for a grand total of £45 is pretty decent still.

Offline pudding

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #196 on: April 11, 2023, 03:38:28 pm »
£300 is pretty good  :happy2: Much better than the UK outfits that want £1000 to rebuild Ohlins coilovers  :stupid: :grin: Needless to say, they are still rotting in my parts cupboard  :grin:  I might sneak them onto the MK6 TDI when the missus isn't looking  :grin:  Also got the MK7.5R front brakes to chuck on as well  :grin:

Yeah I reckon they've addressed the quality issues by now.  It was circa 2006 I got a set and they hadn't been in operation that long at that point. Yeah I used the Comp brake top mounts on my Corrado many moons ago.  I would recommend switching out the spherical bearings for NMB or Aurora (Merlin Motorsport sell them) as the ones supplied in mine only lasted 1000 miles  :grin:

Yeah exactly, those lengths are what it takes merely to run a car low whilst keeping the roll centre where it needs to be  :happy2:  It's a hell of a lot of changes over a Golf! The TT is easily the sportiest setup car of the Golf platform cars  :happy2:

 :grin:  Oh well, I guess all that faff is what we pay someone else to figure out  :grin:

Surprised you have not flogged the Ohlins yet! Lots of grubby hand would love to a get a bargain on a set of them I bet.

Yeah It did come to mind that such a well priced top mount might have crappy bearings :grin: I did note that the sleeve nut on one side would not slide into the bearing with a bit of a thwack compared to the other side so that was a slight hint  :grin: For under £200 though what can you expect, still great value.

Yeah, the "hairdresser's car" that every loves to say actually has some really cool engineer-y bits on it.

Did just whip to Halfords yesterday on saturday and stuck a 063 battery in, classic Ford Fiesta/Vauxhall Corsa style battery, runs absolutely fine with it. Weighed the new one in at 10.3kg, the old one at 16.7kg, it may be heavier than that when new as it has leaked a bit but a minimum weight saving of 6.4kg for a grand total of £45 is pretty decent still.

The front two need a rebuild as it's an early version of the kit with a nylon bearing sleeve that wears out prematurely, causing a knocking noise at slow speeds.  They revised that part in the later kits, typically!  I'm not one for selling stuff with caveats  :grin:  It's like all those car adverts with "Just needs an oil change" or "Runs a bit rough, just needs a coil"  :grin:  Yeah right, it were that cheap and simple, they'd have done it already  :stupid:

 :grin:  yeah some slight issues with the build quality. The good ones are 3x the price though!

Yeah shame really as it's way better than a Golf in terms of handling and weight distribution! The Boxster was also technically a superb car, better than the 911 in some respects, but it was also afflicted by the same stereotype, or "You bought that because you can't afford a 911"  :grin:

Cool, so long as you don't get any juddering from the steering at full lock in the winter, you can call that a win then  :happy2:


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Offline Clarkj93

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #197 on: April 20, 2023, 10:09:05 pm »
yeah the too good to be true for-sale-er's. It is annoying the good ones are coming up to nearly 500 quid, I know there is some R&D involved but its not more more than a good quality bearing with two/three pieces of painted aluminium and some bolts attached  :confused:

Yeah I bet you're right on that. Personally the cayman/boxster is more on my radar than the 911's, the idea of driving a 911 quickly sounds frightening to me I still don't understand how they don't fly off the road with their engine layout:grin:

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #198 on: April 20, 2023, 11:15:49 pm »
So Bilstein stuff is back on, had a bit of a guts full for now. Forgot to post last time but did cut a hole in the wiper panel and insert a removable grommet, making camber changes a bit quicker, obviously its now just a standard top mount but thought it was still worth mentioning :grin:





I cleaned up the spare TT 8J hubs the other day, they look like they have some tiger pattern in this picture where I wire-wheeled them but they look good and polished in person. I was messing about with mocking up some kind of brake duct bracket, but the only way to get it to work to fit between the caliper and hub is some sort of reducer pipe that goes from about 2 to maybe 0.5 inches and weld it on. I don't think its really worth the effort and money frankly, so just going to point as closer as possibly to that gap between the caliper and hub as I can without causing issues.



I found this on an evo forum of the reducer pipe to bracket ducting solution



I did speak to Suspension Secrets the other day about my recent trial-and-errors not going so well. They basically said there is no issue with what I was trying, and the bump travel will be no less if the ride height is the same so I could actually persevere. So after all that, taking the front dampers off about 8 times I think all for nothing :grin: I was actually close to getting a new spring setup! I've put it on hold now and will come back to it later in the year I think when I start to get itchy again to tinker.

I came across  this picture on this forum, which was posted quite some years ago now



Its a droop strap on the rear of a Production GTI race car, I've heard of these being used in these series but no where else quite weirdly. Its an interesting idea though, shorten the droop to get the rear inside wheel off the ground easier and rotate the car easier.  It is usually found on off-roaders, not much info on it being used for track/race cars though.

Trs sell these https://www.trs-motorsport.com/suspension-limiting-strap.html, I think you could tie it down from the rear damper top mount bolt and the damper to hub bolt. It's adjustable as well so I was wondering if you could use it as a tuning tool. So.... if the damper is say 20 inches long fully extended and and 17 inches long when it hits the bump stop and 19 inches long when its on level ground, that means 1 inch is for droop. So you could tighten up the slack on the strap at full droop and then mark points on the strap at points that equal certain lengths of the damper, like mark a line at 1 inch of droop, half an inch of droop and 0 droop. So might stick it at full droop for the road and then quickly adjust to 0.5 inch at the track for example? Just a theory at the moment but again something to tinker with later in the year.

When I stuck the bilstein stuff back, I lowered the subframe a little to get it into position easier, I realised there is a fair bit of forward-rear movement of the subframe when its loose. So I moved it as far forward as possible and the front hubs are definitely more forward, I wish I measured it before and after but it was quite noticeable when under the car the difference in position. The more forward the hub is of the upper damper mounting location means the more positive caster we get, so maybe a wee freebie in terms of performance. Maybe they're meant to be that far forward though and mine was just way too far back for whatever reason so its now just "correct". You can see how much more forward the subframe has gone here, a good couple of mm:



Offline pudding

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #199 on: April 22, 2023, 12:34:14 am »
Haha, it's just decades of persevering with a dumb layout regarding 911s  :grin:  I haven't driven any modern porkers, but I did drive a mate's 993 3.6 and that thing was glued to the road. They have a very unique feel. I can see why people like them  :happy2: 

It did always puzzle me about how people adjust camber plates, and it seems you have the answer  :happy2:

If you're planning on fitting 4 pots to those Audi hubs, you might be OK with just the mass of bigger discs to dissipate heat, but nice plan looking into ducting.  Even with the monster brakes BTCC cars use, they still have ducting, so it must be effective  :happy2:

Are you going full TT with the wishbones and steering rack? That would be a great setup for roll center correction and improved steering  :happy2:
Hopefully not too much wheel poke as MK5 arches aren't particularly generous!

Not seen those droop straps before. Interesting! Would limiting the droop not also limit the damper's rebound travel?  Then again, coilovers tend to have less travel anyway so it might work well in practice  :happy2:

Yeah there's a lot of slack in the subframe mounting holes! I didn't even get half a degree extra caster from SuperPro's claimed +1 degree console bushes  :grin: I reckon you'd have to shunt the struts forward about 10mm to get a degree more, which the console bushes aren't even close to.  That would be a good move if easily achievable  :happy2:


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Offline GilesWoodward59

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #200 on: April 22, 2023, 10:14:52 am »
£300 is pretty good  :happy2: Much better than the UK outfits that want £1000 to rebuild Ohlins coilovers  :stupid: :grin: Needless to say, they are still rotting in my parts cupboard  :grin:  I might sneak them onto the MK6 TDI when the missus isn't looking  :grin:  Also got the MK7.5R front brakes to chuck on as well  :grin:

Yeah I reckon they've addressed the quality issues by now.  It was circa 2006 I got a set and they hadn't been in operation that long at that point. Yeah I used the Comp brake top mounts on my Corrado many moons ago.  I would recommend switching out the spherical bearings for NMB or Aurora (Merlin Motorsport sell them) as the ones supplied in mine only lasted 1000 miles  :grin:

Yeah exactly, those lengths are what it takes merely to run a car low whilst keeping the roll centre where it needs to be  :happy2:  It's a hell of a lot of changes over a Golf! The TT is easily the sportiest setup car of the Golf platform cars  :happy2:

 :grin:  Oh well, I guess all that faff is what we pay someone else to figure out  :grin:

Surprised you have not flogged the Ohlins yet! Lots of grubby hand would love to a get a bargain on a set of them I bet.

Yeah It did come to mind that such a well priced top mount might have crappy bearings :grin: I did note that the sleeve nut on one side would not slide into the bearing with a bit of a thwack compared to the other side so that was a slight hint  :grin: For under £200 though what can you expect, still great value.

Yeah, the "hairdresser's car" that every loves to say actually has some really cool engineer-y bits on it.

Did just whip to Halfords yesterday on saturday and stuck a 063 battery in, classic Ford Fiesta/Vauxhall Corsa style battery, runs absolutely fine with it. Weighed the new one in at 10.3kg, the old one at 16.7kg, it may be heavier than that when new as it has leaked a bit but a minimum weight saving of 6.4kg for a grand total of £45 is pretty decent still.

The front two need a rebuild as it's an early version of the kit with a nylon bearing sleeve that wears out prematurely, causing a knocking noise at slow speeds.  They revised that part in the later kits, typically!  I'm not one for selling stuff with caveats  :grin:  It's like all those car adverts with "Just needs an oil change" or "Runs a bit rough, just needs a coil"  :grin:  Yeah right, it were that cheap and simple, they'd have done it already  :stupid:

 :grin:  yeah some slight issues with the build quality. The good ones are 3x the price though!

Yeah shame really as it's way better than a Golf in terms of handling and weight distribution! The Boxster was also technically a superb car, better than the 911 in some respects, but it was also afflicted by the same stereotype, or "You bought that because you can't afford a 911"  :grin:

Cool, so long as you don't get any juddering from the steering at full lock in the winter, you can call that a win then  :happy2:

Lol, I once bought a 924s because I couldn’t afford a Boxster  :driver:

Good car actually, apart from the rust…
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Offline Clarkj93

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #201 on: April 27, 2023, 10:06:53 pm »
Haha, it's just decades of persevering with a dumb layout regarding 911s  :grin:  I haven't driven any modern porkers, but I did drive a mate's 993 3.6 and that thing was glued to the road. They have a very unique feel. I can see why people like them  :happy2: 

It did always puzzle me about how people adjust camber plates, and it seems you have the answer  :happy2:

If you're planning on fitting 4 pots to those Audi hubs, you might be OK with just the mass of bigger discs to dissipate heat, but nice plan looking into ducting.  Even with the monster brakes BTCC cars use, they still have ducting, so it must be effective  :happy2:

Are you going full TT with the wishbones and steering rack? That would be a great setup for roll center correction and improved steering  :happy2:
Hopefully not too much wheel poke as MK5 arches aren't particularly generous!

Not seen those droop straps before. Interesting! Would limiting the droop not also limit the damper's rebound travel?  Then again, coilovers tend to have less travel anyway so it might work well in practice  :happy2:

Yeah there's a lot of slack in the subframe mounting holes! I didn't even get half a degree extra caster from SuperPro's claimed +1 degree console bushes  :grin: I reckon you'd have to shunt the struts forward about 10mm to get a degree more, which the console bushes aren't even close to.  That would be a good move if easily achievable  :happy2:

I drove a 2007/2008 911, not sure on the model number or spec and was told to drive it very gently so at that speed just felt like any other stiff heavy german car frankly! I'm sure they are great when you're giving them some hence the following and various race car variants.

Yeah what I've noticed is the TCR cars I've seen have big fat ducts to the brakes but they tape over them by a certain percentage until they get the right temps for the pad and disc to work at best.

I was going to initially but from watching an old Darkside video recently they opted against the TT rack because it wasn't quite right for their customesuspension setup but they also said lock to lock its only slightly less and with such an expensive build on their golf they were happy using the caddy steering rack which I'm sure is not any quicker than the golfs so I may leave it  to just save some £'s, but then again I could get the rack just because it will have all the steering arms installed ready to go and then it simply bolts in (with some coding-in on top) and yeah I am fully expecting to grind those arches down! It only just fits now with the TT arms and at this ride height.

Yeah would limit the rebound, if done correctly you will have the same bump but less rebound, effectively shortening the damper but without effecting bump travel.

Yeah its asparational agreed but if there is slack may as well get it as far forward as possible I was thinking!

Offline Clarkj93

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #202 on: April 27, 2023, 10:27:34 pm »
Not sure if anyone else here noticed but Darkside had/have a massive clearance on spare bits and bobs. I was quick enough to snag the AR-1's from their Mini development car, only seen one track day at Combe and after checking the depths, two of them are like almost new with around 4-5mm left (these only come with 5.5 when brand new) and the other two about half worn at about 2.6-3.6/4mm. Easily 2 full track days in them, maybe 3 at a push.

Anyway.. I bagged them for £170 delivered! Considering just 1 brand new Ar-1 is £180 what an absolute bargain. So chuffed with that I had to brag about it. :grin:


It was also interesting to see they had them mounted oddly. These tyres are supposedly non-directional but you can see by the wear that they've mounted them as if they are. They're marked as having an "INSIDE" and "OUTSIDE" to the tyre where as the NS2R's have a directional marker, I contacted Nankang anyway to confirm and they specified you must have the OUTSIDE label on the OUTSIDE and that even though the direction looks odd this is expected and part of the tyre design so they were Darkside were seemingly running the INSIDE on the wrong side which is strange.... maybe it doesn't matter and its just a tyre balancing thing but found that unusual anyway.


« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 10:39:10 pm by Clarkj93 »

Offline pudding

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #203 on: April 30, 2023, 02:22:13 pm »
Bargain! They look meaty and grippy!  Weird switching the rotation round like that.  Maybe they had their reasons as they're all about track work there?



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Offline Clarkj93

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #204 on: May 01, 2023, 10:03:33 pm »
Bargain! They look meaty and grippy!  Weird switching the rotation round like that.  Maybe they had their reasons as they're all about track work there?

Yeah I thought that. I wonder if it's just an over sight on their side as maybe as Nankang did confirm that 100% it does give a non symmetrical look when setup correctly. Maybe one sides sidewall is stiffer to the other or something?  I drove the ns2r's the wrong way around before anyway and it felt like easy a second a lap slower and the car was moving around a lot so I'm just going to do what Nankang tell me form now on :grin:

Offline Clarky

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #205 on: May 02, 2023, 03:26:26 pm »
I have to ask about the turret tops as i too have adjustable top mounts that are a total sh*t to get close to..i can see there was the gentle kiss of an angle grinder involved...but how did you do it and is there any worry about taking rigidity away from the top of the strut? My settings are very track focussed and aggressive for a car that spends 90% of its time on the road and if i could make quicker adjustments than taking it to my mates garage every time its gonna go track/road and back that would be a good thing. I did look at doing it when i fitted the top mounts but couldn't find anyone who had done it and didn't want to get too crazy with the grinder myself...any help or advise is very welcome!

Offline Clarkj93

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #206 on: May 02, 2023, 03:47:04 pm »
I have to ask about the turret tops as i too have adjustable top mounts that are a total sh*t to get close to..i can see there was the gentle kiss of an angle grinder involved...but how did you do it and is there any worry about taking rigidity away from the top of the strut? My settings are very track focussed and aggressive for a car that spends 90% of its time on the road and if i could make quicker adjustments than taking it to my mates garage every time its gonna go track/road and back that would be a good thing. I did look at doing it when i fitted the top mounts but couldn't find anyone who had done it and didn't want to get too crazy with the grinder myself...any help or advise is very welcome!

Yeah so entire damper out and wipers and wiper panel off and cover everything in sight as best you can - engine bay, wings, windscreen and then cut with a grinder. It was a bit fiddly to get the grinder in that tight spot but did it eventually. I did make a hell of a mess in doing it which is why I say cover everything and not just the engine bay like I did.

Nah should not effect rigidity at all as we are not changing how or where the damper is mounted or how one side of the chassis is connected to the other side.

Just bare in mind also that changing camber settings on the fly will also effect toe settings and vice versa.

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #207 on: May 05, 2023, 09:01:31 pm »
Yeah could be an oversight with the tyres as you say. I can see how that could be confused with those particular tyres though as the cuts aren't your usual arrow head pattern. Normally with 45 degree water dispersing cuts, you want the trailing edge pointing to the back of the car, if that makes sense, to force water out the sides rather than fling it into the middle of the wheel arch.

I would say they should have fitted them with the row of smaller cuts on the inboard side, but I'm no track tyre expert.  Looking at the inboard camber wear, they had them reversed as you say  :grin:

'Finessing' the turret tops with a grinder won't affect rigidity, although if that does concern you, stick a strut brace across em'  :happy2:  I'm sure I've seen one that anchors in 3 places. Both turret tops and the firewall, which is ideal.

I've seen Darkside using shimable wishbones which seems really trick and simple.  They just shove in say, 15mm shims to get 2.5-3 degrees, then trim the toe accordingly and they're off. And simply take them out for road duties. The shims being a fixed length, makes it super quick, easy and consistent.  Just thinking that may be easier than adjusting top mounts, especially if you do it regularly switching from road to track.

Have you thought about some basic DIY alignment tools? You don't always need an expensive 4 wheel alignment setup each time if only the front is changing.

Another thing worthy of consideration when running tyres like that is stitch welding the chassis rails. Did you see Darkside's video of their track MK5 that has the MK6 bodykit? After a few sessions with semi slicks, he mentioned the spot welds on the chassis legs were pulling apart  :surprised:

That was actually a thing back in my Corrado days where we used to stitch weld the front subframes and engine mount cups for the same reason.
 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 09:07:11 pm by Pudding »


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Offline Clarkj93

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #208 on: May 08, 2023, 10:16:53 pm »
Yeah they do look pretty useless in the wet with the water being pulled in? :grin:

Shim-able wishbones sounds awesome, I did have a quick google but cannot find any pics of real world examples. I imagine its not going to be something that is easily made by a weekend diy-er.

Wow did not think you could do that kind of wear unless you were running big fat slicks and aero like a TCR car does.

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Re: Very budget track build
« Reply #209 on: May 12, 2023, 07:27:28 pm »
Yeah they showed them in one of their videos, I couldn't tell you which one though  :grin:  I saw that and though what an epic idea. I think they bought them in. They didn't mention it being something they made at least. I think they switched to the mega bucks Verkline subframes and arms after that.

I also watched one of REPerformance's videos recently where Ryan took his MK5 down to their dyno as it's a track certified one. Apparently a lot of folk were complaining his MK5 is too fast, so must be cheating by running more power  :grin:  Sore losers  :grin:

Anyway, yeah the forces have to go somewhere when running track suspension and tyres....and when everything else stops breaking, the bodyshell itself then takes the brunt  :grin:


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