Ideal Track day wheels and tyres?

[PKGTI]

Hi Guys,

I am after some advice for a set of track day wheels and tyres.  Last year I took by beautiful Mk5 GTI around Anglesey for it's first track outing and It did really well riding on standard 18" Monza with a decent set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4 tyres.  The only modification I did prior to the trip was fit a lovely clean set of Golf R calipers along with with genuine new R discs and pads and the car was faultless.  With things opening up soon hopefully, myself and a few mates are planning another Welsh road trip with and another day at the brilliant Anglesey circuit.  This time I want to invest in some track wheels and tyres so I can push on bit harder and not destroy what's left of my Michelins! 

I did stumble across an older post where someone had done the same with a set of 17" team Dynamic wheels in 17" shod with Toyo 888r's.  I like the sound of going for 17" wheels for the advantage of weight and lower tyre cost but will they fit over my calipers?

Tyre wise, I am a big fan of Yokohama Ad08r's having had them on a previous track car, I especially like their ability to clear water if it rains and perform well on road too.  I am open to other suggestions and if anyone has a suitable set for sale, I'm keen to get them now.

Thanks

[Clarkj93]

I'd be interest in the answers as well... I'm like you and only recently started to track the golf. While I would love some team dynamics I'm prioritizing rubber and worn out suspension bits for now.

I'm pretty sure ProductionGTI Championship https://www.productiongti.com/ have to run 17's and most of them run r32 front calipers... so I imagine the R calipers are no bigger and it should clear? Not 100% though.

For tyres... I'm considering a set of Nankang NS2R next, lots of good reviews as a good value for money option, obviously not in the same league as some of the more hardcore options but for a car that is still not too far from stock I would imagine its good enough for the time being.

But if you are not on a budget like me then go nuts and experiment with the big boy stuff!

[PKGTI]

Hi Clarkj93,

Like you, my suspension could do with a refresh, however I was amazed well the standard (worn) kit worked on track.  I don't want to spend out on cheap coil overs for marginal gains on track but completely ruin it as a road car. 

[Clarkj93]

Same here mate, It was compromising but surprising how OK it has felt. I've just replaced a broken spring so for me that's a warning its all on the way out! personally I think I've decided on b14 next, good reviews, OK price, not bothered about adjustability right now and its Bilstein so no doubt it will be built to last and deal with crappy roads from time to time.

[PKGTI]

I like the sound of these....

https://www.kwsuspensions.co.uk/shop/VW_GOLF_V__1K1__10_2003-02_2009_1K1_2.0_GTI_Petrol_169KW_1984ccm_mjGRYBpreYXrAevY9A0aRg../55/Street_Comfort/18010039

More road focussed with the ability to firm up up for a track day?

[Clarkj93]

Not sure if they will be ideal for track work... probably better than stock but considering the price might be better options. But if comfort is the highest priority they may be right for you. perhaps someone who has them or has a comfort biased setup can comment.

[PKGTI]

Not sure if they will be ideal for track work... probably better than stock but considering the price might be better options. But if comfort is the highest priority they may be right for you. perhaps someone who has them or has a comfort biased setup can comment.

I think you're probably right, I had considered the B14's and they seem good value too.  Be good to hear from someone who's running them.

[pudding]

Michelin PS4 is way too soggy for serious track work.  I would be looking at the semi-track tyres you've mentioned, or Eagle F1 R or Pilot Sport Cup 2.

Bilstein B14 is very aggressive for road use.  You will enjoy the corners as inverted monotubes have a cornering stability like nothing else, but you will hate them on broken tarmac.  Maybe consider the B16 which is rebound/compression adjustable, allowing you back off some of the aggression when not on track.

The Ohlins Road & Track are truly sublime on the road and can be adjusted for track work, but come at a premium, and don't last long....30K miles max.

I would maybe steer more towards the Bilstein B12 Pro kit, which should satisfy both demands quite nicely.  You'll need to get a B12 Pro kit for a MK6 TDI though because the only kit available for a MK5 GTI is the B12 Sportline, which is bloody horrible.  The MK6 dampers are not as aggressive, so better suited to road use, and the Pro springs are not as low as the Sportline, meaning you have enough droop for road use.

The trouble with being too low is the struts run out of travel too quickly, which is cr@p for traction out of corners and also traversing bumpy B roads.

It's a big ask covering both track and road use with equal aplomb, hence why the handful of kits that can achieve that cost £1000s.

[Clarkj93]

Hey @Pudding what makes the b12 sportlines horrible? Is it a poor choice for performance/track work or comfort? Or both? Sorry for hijacking matey @PKGTI haha

[PKGTI]

Michelin PS4 is way too soggy for serious track work.  I would be looking at the semi-track tyres you've mentioned, or Eagle F1 R or Pilot Sport Cup 2.

Bilstein B14 is very aggressive for road use.  You will enjoy the corners as inverted monotubes have a cornering stability like nothing else, but you will hate them on broken tarmac.  Maybe consider the B16 which is rebound/compression adjustable, allowing you back off some of the aggression when not on track.

The Ohlins Road & Track are truly sublime on the road and can be adjusted for track work, but come at a premium, and don't last long....30K miles max.

I would maybe steer more towards the Bilstein B12 Pro kit, which should satisfy both demands quite nicely.  You'll need to get a B12 Pro kit for a MK6 TDI though because the only kit available for a MK5 GTI is the B12 Sportline, which is bloody horrible.  The MK6 dampers are not as aggressive, so better suited to road use, and the Pro springs are as low as the Sportline, meaning you have enough droop for road use.

The trouble with being too low is the struts run out of travel too quickly, which is cr@p for traction out of corners and also traversing bumpy B roads.

It's a big ask covering both track and road use with equal aplomb, hence why the handful of kits that can achieve that cost £1000s.

Thanks for the reply Pudding,

I have come to the conclusion that B12's are the way to go for my needs and contacted Larkspeed as they are showing the Pro kit for a GTI so I emailed them to confirm availability... had a reply to say they are could ship a pro kit in 3-4 weeks.  I am not entirely convinced as the Pro Kit is no longer listed on the Bilstein website.

Wheel wise I'm looking to go for Team Dynamic 1.2's in either an 18" or 17" with a set of Yokohama AD08r's. Black circles have a flash sale on Michelins at the moment putting a set of Cup 2's in 17" within £50 of the Yokohama's for a set!  I still rate the yokohama's very highly and know they take loads of punishment

[pudding]

Hey @Pudding what makes the b12 sportlines horrible? Is it a poor choice for performance/track work or comfort? Or both? Sorry for hijacking matey @PKGTI haha

OK, hope your sitting comfortably as the Bilstein stuff gets confusing. I hope this summarised break down helps clear it up!

B3 Springs and mountings - OEM spec.
B4 twin tube dampers - designed for OEM springs.  OEM spec damping. OEM droop length.
B6 monotube dampers - designed for OEM springs. Slightly stiffer damping. OEM droop length.
B8 monotube Sprint dampers - designed for lowering springs.  Shorter than OEM droop.
B12 - Tailored springs with B8 dampers - kits put together by Bilstein themselves.  Springs are made by Eibach.
B14 - Non damping adjustable coilovers.
B16 - Adjustable damping coilovers.
B16 clubsport - Adjustable damping coilovers with camber adjustable top mounts.

So looking at that list, you can see where each Bxx rating sits in the OEM vs sporting hierarchy, with B4 being the softest, to B16 being the stiffest.

Where the B12 kits get confusing is Pro vs Sportline.

Pro is only available for non-gti cars and the lowering is usually -20 to -30mm, and that's compared to a non GTI.   As the GTI is approx 10-15mm lower than a non-GTI from the factory, a Pro spring therefore lowers a GTI approx 10-15mm.  I hope that makes sense!  Which imo, is the perfect lowering amount for a road car.

The Sportline is designed for the cooking models (i.e GTI, R32, R), and is -40mm lower than a non-GTI, so it drops pretty low, too low imo.  And when you drop that much, you have to stiffen the spring significantly to stop the struts bottoming out over every bump, which destroys ride comfort.

Why Bilstein don't offer a Pro spring for the GTI is a mystery to me.  Marketing probably, because the GTI is the sporting model and they assume no one would want the more forgiving Pro spring.

So in summary, for a mild drop with a spring/damping upgrade over stock for a MK5 GTI, you need a B12 Pro kit for a MK6 TDI - kit no. 46-1879576.

I know that sounds completely arse about face, but it's just how it is!!

Of course, if you do actually want the lower stance and stiffer ride, then the a B12 Sportline may suit some people.....but for me, the B12 Pro is the daily usable option.

Bilstein base their B12 kits on axle weights, and the 2.0 TDI MK6 is very close to a MK5 GTI, so it works out well.  And the MK6 dampers aren't as aggressively valved as the MK5's.

Sorry that wasn't a quick answer, but Bilstein have made it a less than straight forward themselves unfortunately.

[pudding]

Michelin PS4 is way too soggy for serious track work.  I would be looking at the semi-track tyres you've mentioned, or Eagle F1 R or Pilot Sport Cup 2.

Bilstein B14 is very aggressive for road use.  You will enjoy the corners as inverted monotubes have a cornering stability like nothing else, but you will hate them on broken tarmac.  Maybe consider the B16 which is rebound/compression adjustable, allowing you back off some of the aggression when not on track.

The Ohlins Road & Track are truly sublime on the road and can be adjusted for track work, but come at a premium, and don't last long....30K miles max.

I would maybe steer more towards the Bilstein B12 Pro kit, which should satisfy both demands quite nicely.  You'll need to get a B12 Pro kit for a MK6 TDI though because the only kit available for a MK5 GTI is the B12 Sportline, which is bloody horrible.  The MK6 dampers are not as aggressive, so better suited to road use, and the Pro springs are as low as the Sportline, meaning you have enough droop for road use.

The trouble with being too low is the struts run out of travel too quickly, which is cr@p for traction out of corners and also traversing bumpy B roads.

It's a big ask covering both track and road use with equal aplomb, hence why the handful of kits that can achieve that cost £1000s.

Thanks for the reply Pudding,

I have come to the conclusion that B12's are the way to go for my needs and contacted Larkspeed as they are showing the Pro kit for a GTI so I emailed them to confirm availability... had a reply to say they are could ship a pro kit in 3-4 weeks.  I am not entirely convinced as the Pro Kit is no longer listed on the Bilstein website.

Wheel wise I'm looking to go for Team Dynamic 1.2's in either an 18" or 17" with a set of Yokohama AD08r's. Black circles have a flash sale on Michelins at the moment putting a set of Cup 2's in 17" within £50 of the Yokohama's for a set!  I still rate the yokohama's very highly and know they take loads of punishment

See my post above my friend, the B12 Pro does not exist for a GTI.  The Sportline is the only option. A lot of resellers get confused by this.

B12 Pro = black progressive springs @ minus 20 to 30mm on a non-GTI car.

B12 Sportline is all that's available for a GTI, which = Red spring @ minus 40mm (iirc) over a non-GTI car, and significantly harsher than the Pro Spring.

If it were me, I'd go with the Pro kit for a MK6 GTI TDI (kit no. quoted above) for an 80% road car, 20% track work.

If you find the B12 Pro a touch soft, the only other thing I would recommend is Ohlins Road & Track but the cost of them is off putting for most, as are the clunking noises they make.  But quite honestly, they are the best dampers I've ever experienced on a VAG car.

[Clarkj93]

Hey @Pudding what makes the b12 sportlines horrible? Is it a poor choice for performance/track work or comfort? Or both? Sorry for hijacking matey @PKGTI haha

OK, hope your sitting comfortably as the Bilstein stuff gets confusing. I hope this summarised break down helps clear it up!

B3 Springs and mountings - OEM spec.
B4 twin tube dampers - designed for OEM springs.  OEM spec damping. OEM droop length.
B6 monotube dampers - designed for OEM springs. Slightly stiffer damping. OEM droop length.
B8 monotube Sprint dampers - designed for lowering springs.  Shorter than OEM droop.
B12 - Tailored springs with B8 dampers - kits put together by Bilstein themselves.  Springs are made by Eibach.
B14 - Non damping adjustable coilovers.
B16 - Adjustable damping coilovers.
B16 clubsport - Adjustable damping coilovers with camber adjustable top mounts.

So looking at that list, you can see where each Bxx rating sits in the OEM vs sporting hierarchy, with B4 being the softest, to B16 being the stiffest.

Where the B12 kits get confusing is Pro vs Sportline.

Pro is only available for non-gti cars and the lowering is usually -20 to -30mm, and that's compared to a non GTI.   As the GTI is approx 10-15mm lower than a non-GTI from the factory, a Pro spring therefore lowers a GTI approx 10-15mm.  I hope that makes sense!  Which imo, is the perfect lowering amount for a road car.

The Sportline is designed for the cooking models (i.e GTI, R32, R), and is -40mm lower than a non-GTI, so it drops pretty low, too low imo.  And when you drop that much, you have to stiffen the spring significantly to stop the struts bottoming out over every bump, which destroys ride comfort.

Why Bilstein don't offer a Pro spring for the GTI is a mystery to me.  Marketing probably, because the GTI is the sporting model and they assume no one would want the more forgiving Pro spring.

So in summary, for a mild drop with a spring/damping upgrade over stock for a MK5 GTI, you need a B12 Pro kit for a MK6 TDI - kit no. 46-1879576.

I know that sounds completely arse about face, but it's just how it is!!

Of course, if you do actually want the lower stance and stiffer ride, then the a B12 Sportline may suit some people.....but for me, the B12 Pro is the daily usable option.

Bilstein base their B12 kits on axle weights, and the 2.0 TDI MK6 is very close to a MK5 GTI, so it works out well.  And the MK6 dampers aren't as aggressively valved as the MK5's.

Sorry that wasn't a quick answer, but Bilstein have made it a less than straight forward themselves unfortunately.

Gotcha! Thanks for the detailed response there pal, much appreciated. Myself and I'm sure many others will put that knowledge to good use

[PKGTI]

Thanks for the really comprehensive overview, I will most likely go for the MK6 TDI kit you recommend.  I would love the Ohlins kit if I could justify the spend having driven an e46 M3 with them fitted, the ride/handling balance was incredible!

[PKGTI]

Hi@Pudding, that MK6 TDI part number doesn't list on the Bilstein website?