Engine cutting out

[crashs2k]

Hi,

Hope you are all well.

I've been having a few intermittent issues with my 2008 GTI.  First happened going uphill with engine cutting out and not holding idle followed by EPC, traction control and ABS lights coming on.  Managed to get it home by restarting several times and making sure I was giving it some throttle so the engine wouldn't cut out when approaching a stop at lights, roundabouts etc.

My local specialist cleared fault codes and noticed some issues with throttle valve wiring (adjusted pins) and air mass pins (water damage).  They also checked live operation of throttle valve which checked out to be ok.  Has been fine for a while but now issues have come back and the check engine light is now on permanently.

VCDS scan shows the following fault codes:
4 Faults Found:
005476 - Throttle Actuator (J338)
               P1564 - 002 - Under-Voltage during Basic Setting - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100010
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 136354 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 0 /min
                    Load: 100.0 %
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 68.0°C
                    Temperature: 27.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 9.779 V

000289 - Throttle Position Sensor (G69)
               P0121 - 008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00101000
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 137142 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 12:24:36

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 1520 /min
                    Load: 22.0 %
                    Speed: 62.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 92.0°C
                    Temperature: 32.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 14.224 V

000545 - Angle Sensor 2 for Throttle (G188)
               P0221 - 008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00101000
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 137142 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 12:24:36

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 1520 /min
                    Load: 22.0 %
                    Speed: 62.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 92.0°C
                    Temperature: 32.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 14.224 V

005445 - Throttle Valve Controller
               P1545 - 002 - Malfunction - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100010
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 3
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 137154 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 12:44:45

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 911 /min
                    Load: 27.8 %
                    Speed: 40.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 91.0°C
                    Temperature: 31.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 14.097 V

01314 - Engine Control Module
            013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00101101
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 220
                    Mileage: 137143 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    Count: 0
                    Count: 32768
                    Count: 12800
                    Count: 8196
                    Count: 52030
                    Count: 2
                    Count: 0
                    Count: 0

I've done some research on the forums and could be throttle body, throttle position sensor or wiring (ECM - throttle valve: TSB 2018652/2).

My local specialist is at a bit of a loss and has suggested to clear fault codes and drive again until it happens.  Not sure what that solves and I don't really want to have an unreliable car that cuts out (on a motorway with my wife driving would be worse-case scenario).

Any thoughts from the gurus on the forum before I start replacing components and hope it resolves the problem?

Thanks,
John

[pudding]

There are a couple of known issues on the throttle side.

1) The wiring harness that runs under the intake manifold can chaff/wear through and short out.
2) The factory fitted VDO branded throttle body was updated to a Continental branded part at some point in the production cycle.

It sounds like 1) is the likely culprit from your description.

The MAF wiring shouldn't suffer water damage.  Has someone meddled with the wiring on your engine at some point?

If it ends up being 2), prepare yourself for a £300 odd bill from VW!

VW sell a 'repair' kit for 1) btw, which is basically pre-terminated wires with new pins to slide into the throttle body plug, and the other ends get crimped/soldered onto the harness after the dodgy section has been cut out.

[crashs2k]

Thanks for the response Pudding.

Indie has picked up misfires on cylinders 1 and 3 which were causing the CEL. He was planning on doing a smoke test for leaks but we needed the car back today.

Will go back to them for service next month for injector cleaning / de-carbon and potentially wiring / TB.

She’s a keeper and had planned to do some maintenance work on her anyway - just need to dip into the maintenance fund more than planned!

Thanks for sharing all of your knowledge on suspension refresh - am planning on replacing bushes and OEM shocks based on your threads / discussions. 

Stage 1 will have to wait until next year! Until then 

[pudding]

Yeah get the foundations nice and solid first, the mods can wait 

It's amazing how much faster and smoother the engine can be just by fixing problems.  Some people launch straight into the mods without fixing underlying problems first and end up being disappointed.

[crashs2k]

So the saga continues....

Got my car back from the indie on Friday.  He had diagnosed that one of the vacuum breather hoses was split in 2 and needed replacing.  It was only a minor split and would only be leaking when the engine was under load and hence causing intermittent misfire.

Replaced the hose and also had to fit a new water pipe / vacuum pipe and breather valve for the cooling system.  CEL no longer present and car returned with no fault codes on the dash and wallet lighter to the tune of £350.

Unfortunately, during the usual Saturday ferrying children to various activities (and managed to take the car for a little thrash to make sure everything was ok) the warning lights have returned.  Ironically not on the initial morning run when I was extending the engine but in the afternoon just normal pootling around in traffic / dual carriageways at 60mph.

Not the CEL but EPC, traction control and ABS warning lights this time (which was the original problem I had back in May).

Am at a little bit of a loss and somewhat reluctant to take it back to the indie given that this is their 2nd attempt at rectifying the problem but we don't seem to be diagnosing root-cause.

VCDS scan:

4 Faults Found:
000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
               P0300 - 001 -  - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 137724 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 14:48:44

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 4029 /min
                    Load: 100.0 %
                    Speed: 108.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 91.0°C
                    Temperature: 38.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 13.970 V

000771 - Cylinder 3
               P0303 - 001 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 137724 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 14:48:44

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 4029 /min
                    Load: 100.0 %
                    Speed: 108.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 91.0°C
                    Temperature: 38.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 13.970 V

000770 - Cylinder 2
               P0302 - 001 - Misfire Detected - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 137724 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 14:48:44

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 4029 /min
                    Load: 100.0 %
                    Speed: 108.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 91.0°C
                    Temperature: 38.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 13.970 V

000289 - Throttle Position Sensor (G69)
               P0121 - 008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00101000
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 137775 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2000.00.00
                    Time: 14:19:05

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 2241 /min
                    Load: 43.9 %
                    Speed: 92.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 93.0°C
                    Temperature: 31.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 14.097 V


Readiness: 0010 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes (-----)       Labels:. 1K0-907-379-60EC1F.clb
   Part No SW: 1K0 907 379 AN    HW: 1K0 907 379 AN
   Component: ESP MK60EC1   H45 0107 
   Revision: 00H45001   
   Coding: 163B600D092200FA680C06ED901F00813400
   Shop #: WSC 45073 002 1048576
   VCID: 7EA5FA8470F9CF6BD5E-802A

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module
            013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00101101
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 2
                    Reset counter: 13
                    Mileage: 137714 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    Count: 7
                    Count: 4
                    Count: 4864
                    Count: 8196
                    Count: 45568
                    Count: 7935
                    Count: 0
                    Count: 0

[GVK]

Surely they should be diagnosing it it, not yourself, it needs a throttle body on it or the modified wiring loom to stop the cutting out, the misfire codes are probably a coil pack.

What area are you in?

[crashs2k]

Am in St. Albans / Hertfordshire.

I do think that the vacuum hose they replaced was causing an issue as at one point I had misfires on all 4 cylinders.

Any other VW independents recommendations?  Dealer service department won't even return my calls to get my car booked in!

AKS has quoted a replacement body as being £600.

Thanks,
John

[GVK]

Sorry don't know of any specialists in that area, £600 seems steep!

SCC are or were Ford specialists in St Albans but i'm not sure if they work on VW?

https://www.car-clinic.info/

[LC5F]

Is that £600 just for the part or fitment too?
To get at the loom it would need the intake manifold off - an awkward job, wonder what the book rate is for that.

The whole change in brand Pudding was talking about is intriguing - why would a tyre company be making intake throttles - Simple, they bought out VDO. 
The continental site links into the VDO online catalogue:https://web.tecalliance.net/vdo/en/home
assuming I found the correct part - the going rate for a new VDO/Continental one is around £200 - There is one on ebay currently for £150.

[pudding]

The TC/ESP/ABS fault is common under this condition because the engine and ABS ECUs talk to each other.  The ABS ECU needs an engine load signal from the Engine ECU in order to control the ESP and Traction functions.  You get the same ABS faults if the MAF fails as well, which is another engine load measurement.

It's all 'driver demand' modelling in modern cars, which is heavily tied into chassis control unfortunately. Fix the engine and the ABS faults will disappear.

I'm still leaning on a wiring fault now that misfires have cropped up.  VW usually send the coilpacks, injectors and throttle wires down the same harness, so I would be looking for signs of chaffing and/or breaks in wires.  Perhaps wiggle the harnesses around with the engine running and see if that causes stuttering. It all seems like too much of a coincidence to me. 

As I said previously, the throttle body harness is/was a known issue, as was the throttle body itself, although I believe the latter was more to do with weak return springs on the original VDO throttle, which could cause rev hang coming off boost.

[Marrkyyy]

Am in St. Albans / Hertfordshire.

I do think that the vacuum hose they replaced was causing an issue as at one point I had misfires on all 4 cylinders.

Any other VW independents recommendations?  Dealer service department won't even return my calls to get my car booked in!

AKS has quoted a replacement body as being £600.

Thanks,
John

Hi John,

I have the exact same issue with mine right now. I’ve done 200 miles with a new throttle body (second time in two years), I’ve the throttle body-related code that you posted here.


How did you end up fixing it?

[crashs2k]

Hi,

In the end, it was a vacuum issue.  The only parts that were replaced were a vacuum hose and a breather valve and it has been fine ever since.

I am told that the EA113 engine is very sensitive to vacuum losses (as can be seen by the number of threads on this forum ) which can throw all manner of fault codes. Given the age of our cars hoses, pipes and connectors will inevitably be perishing and leaking vacuum.

The only thing I would suggest is to find a good independent who is experienced with the Mk5 engine and doesn't necessarily go directly to replacing the parts that are necessarily throwing the error codes i.e. throttle body in our case as they may not actually be the cause of the issue but just a symptom.

Even though they are VAG specialists, my indie took them a couple of visits before they diagnosed and rectified it.  Thankfully they do not do work unnecessarily even when provided lots of pointers and guidance from armchair car mechanics who read a lot on internet forums like me.

Case in point, my front suspension started squeaking badly recently.  I would have put money on it being top mounts, broken front springs, steering rack or subframe.  In the end, the front lower ball joints needed replacement. 

Anyway, good luck with finding the fault with yours and let us know how you get on.   

cheers,
John