All Things Mk5 > Mk5 General Area
K04 Conversion - Looking for opinions & posting my progress/info about the swap
ZoliWorks:
--- Quote from: OllieVRS on March 27, 2024, 11:16:44 am ---Many options there, your final biggest option is probably worth more than my whole car :grin:
Up to you what path you go down, but as the HP increase the money required to get more HP exponentially increases, if you get what I mean.
If you're talking about upgrading pistons, keep in mind how much time and money that that full engine rebuild will cost too. Factory pistons are fine up to 350hp according to others on this forum.
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If I do go down the route of forged piston rods, I might as well get the pistons themselves. My other mechanic pal who I collaborate with recommended that I replace my pistons if I do take the engine apart. A set of forged pistons should only set me back somewhere between 800 and 1k while I've seen rods as low as 700. But this is very far away tbh. I just want to get the car back up and running, putting down that 300-310hp.
And yeah, the more HP I want, the more I need to invest, which is why I think the K04 basic might be a good middleground. I'll get better middle and top end, more HP but will lose low down responsiveness all for under 1.2k, the price of an OEM K03. Anything more than this will turn this car into a money pit. I'd be fine with injectors and the fuel pump if I can safely push the engine to 350hp that way but I've heard a lot of mixed opinions. Some say stock rods should not be pushed beyond 330hp but I think it's the torque we need to limit. 500nm might be too much on stock rods. Maybe they can take 450?
On another note, I wonder if the S3, ED30 or other k04 engine's pistons and rods fit a BWA cause I can get a complete ED30 engine from the UK for under 1k
--- Quote from: OllieVRS on March 27, 2024, 11:16:44 am ---You don't necessarily need the S3 intercooler upgrade, but performance will suffer if you're doing more than just 1 pull from traffic lights, due to heat soak. Essentially as the heat from the extra fuel being burnt can't dissipate fast enough, the car automatically reduces power to contain the heat. E.g. the first dyno run will get you a high number, but the second much lower. Or on a race track the car will lose performance after a few turns. I wonder what @breeze thinks about this. He also has a good point about torque, you may have to start revving higher when driving after upgrading. But that's down to personal preference whether you prefer balanced torque through the whole rev range or more high end torque and less low end.
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Summers we get upwards of 35c here so I'll deffo make good use of the intercooler. My general driving style keeps the engine above 2.5k at all times so I should be good. Spoke to my tuner who says he drove in both k03 and k04 tuned cars and that there isn't that much difference down low. I'd want a turbo that is balanced throughout the power range but I think that's what the K04 is. If I want instant response, I might as well get a diesel :grin:
--- Quote from: OllieVRS on March 27, 2024, 11:16:44 am ---Downpipe costs money, but it's a good HP value upgrade after the turbo. It normally gets 15hp extra on stock cars (on high octane maps), it got me 10 extra hp on 95 octane. Not to mention my 200 cel cat really improved the exhaust note of mine even with the rest of the exhaust being stock, it sounds like a fancier raspy race car engine rather than the boring 4 cylinder that it is :grin:. Mine is from MPDevelopments UK, €600. It does cause a check engine light which has to be coded out by your tuner though. Haven't put it through an emissions test yet, but I've kept the original downpipe just in case.
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I've read that 200 cell cats wont trigger a check engine light but that's the least of my worries, we'll code it out. Passing emissions is the important part to me! I'm hoping for the same result; Improved sound, something more sporty, not your generic 4 cylinder family car but not as loud and as much drone as a full sports exhaust. Plus at 1/4th of the cost.
OllieVRS:
"If I'm getting X I MIGHT ASWELL GET Y", the classic car guy dilemma :grin:. Very difficult to stop yourself before you end up trying to build an engine that could do 24H of Le Mans.
Yeah I agree, the basic minimum for K04 upgrade is a good middle ground. If I didn't have plans for buying additional cars I would be looking at that myself. You may not need a clutch right away, but keep money saved for when you need it will eventually.
Also since you have high octane available in your country it would be worth considering 'switchable maps', where either OEM ECU or aftermarket ECU can be modified to support switching maps just using the in-cabin controls in the car. Not too sure how it works, but my tuner friend (who also does cheap maps like your friend) said for €500 euro he can do it, which for me just wasn't worth it. But you should do some research into it, having a 95 octane economy map and 100 octane 'fun' map would be great.
Keep in mind if you legitimately getting an ED30 engine from the UK for 1k (you must have good friends or the engine isn't running), then you will have to pay import fees/customs duty into the EU. Which can also add weeks to the delivery. All can be avoided of course if you have a sketchy friend with a van who's bringing it to you, I wouldn't know anything about that ;)
No need to worry about rods if you're going for a basic K04 set up though, and it's not like you need more than 300hp on a FWD car anyway.
...My 200 cel cat triggers the check engine light if not mapped out, not all cats are built equally. But it smells less than a decat and gives me peace of mind that I'm not a complete environmental terrorist :innocent:. It's definitely a good investment if you ask me.
ZoliWorks:
--- Quote from: OllieVRS on March 28, 2024, 11:36:49 am ---"If I'm getting X I MIGHT ASWELL GET Y", the classic car guy dilemma :grin:. Very difficult to stop yourself before you end up trying to build an engine that could do 24H of Le Mans.
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True... That's how I was with the old 1.4, spent well over 12k on it and ended up selling it (to my dad) for 6k, taking off almost all the mods and selling them... minus the engine tune-up. Even tho he isn't a speedster and his old car is a 1.4 golf 4, he does like the instant power the 240hp 1.4 can deliver... But still gets beaten by a GTI with a broken turbo :grin:
I do plan on restraining myself to just the generic K04 mods without getting into pistons and rods for the near future. Downpipe w/ sports cat, intake to make it sound cool, dv relocation kit, dv+ since I already have it and it makes a way better sound than the stock valves, r8 coils, ngk plugs, ECS complete boost pipe kit and lastly OEM S3 intercooler.
--- Quote from: OllieVRS on March 28, 2024, 11:36:49 am ---Yeah I agree, the basic minimum for K04 upgrade is a good middle ground. If I didn't have plans for buying additional cars I would be looking at that myself. You may not need a clutch right away, but keep money saved for when you need it will eventually.
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I've settled with this car and dont plan on buying anything else for the next 5+ years. The 2.0 is great. Got the car for 4k total, 2.8k for the car, negotiated down from 3.650 cause the engine was running pretty bad (it was the brake booster line, it cracked), 600 for getting it home, around 500 for all the paperwork and getting it registered and lastly 100 to my buddy who spoke German and got me the deal. Spent around 4k repairing it which would have cost double if I went to other mechanics and bought parts through them.
Why all this for a GTI? Well because it's full option! It has almost everything you could put in it in 2006 and only 128k km (when I bought it anyway, made 10k since then). The clutch failed 100 meters after getting it off the trailer so I replaced the whole thing, including the DMF. I went with a Sachs X-tend performance clutch kit from the start, knowing that I'll need it in the future, so I'm all set for a while.
--- Quote from: OllieVRS on March 28, 2024, 11:36:49 am ---Also since you have high octane available in your country it would be worth considering 'switchable maps', where either OEM ECU or aftermarket ECU can be modified to support switching maps just using the in-cabin controls in the car. Not too sure how it works, but my tuner friend (who also does cheap maps like your friend) said for €500 euro he can do it, which for me just wasn't worth it. But you should do some research into it, having a 95 octane economy map and 100 octane 'fun' map would be great.
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Map switching is definitely something I'll look into because I also use this car as my daily. I get 13-14 l/100km in the city which is not ideal so i've been looking into multiple maps for a while and might get an aftermarket unit for that specifically. I'll have it set up like those oldschool hueys with the flip open type switches by the shifter, where the ESP and wheel pressure button is. :grin:
--- Quote from: OllieVRS on March 28, 2024, 11:36:49 am ---Keep in mind if you legitimately getting an ED30 engine from the UK for 1k (you must have good friends or the engine isn't running), then you will have to pay import fees/customs duty into the EU. Which can also add weeks to the delivery. All can be avoided of course if you have a sketchy friend with a van who's bringing it to you, I wouldn't know anything about that ;)
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He has his ways and I don't question them :innocent:
We'll see what he brings home, take what I need and he'll sell off the rest.
--- Quote from: OllieVRS on March 28, 2024, 11:36:49 am ---No need to worry about rods if you're going for a basic K04 set up though, and it's not like you need more than 300hp on a FWD car anyway.
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Yeah that's what I'm thinking. I'll deffo need an LSD cause even right now in it's current state, I'm slipping till the end of 2nd gear, and I've got Vredestein tires on.... winter ones anyway, I'm waiting on the rims to arrive for the summer ones.
--- Quote from: OllieVRS on March 28, 2024, 11:36:49 am ---...My 200 cel cat triggers the check engine light if not mapped out, not all cats are built equally. But it smells less than a decat and gives me peace of mind that I'm not a complete environmental terrorist :innocent:. It's definitely a good investment if you ask me.
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Yeah the smell is another factor why I want a sports cat and not a complete decat.
Here's the car itself. It's a 2006 Jetta with a 2.0 turbo. These pics were taken in December, the morning after I finished the Mk6 GTI front end conversion and mirror cover paintjob. I'll likely keep the car the same color, but paint the front, repair the rear bumper and cover the chrome window trims and door pillars with matte black wrap. It gives it a more sportier look. I want it to look clean from the exterior, go unnoticed cause the color is way too common. A sleeper build basically. :grin:
The front parts are all covered in paint primer as it matches with the car's color till it gets hotter outside to paint it and I've since then painted the grille trims glossy black. Looks cleaner and sportier imo.
Next to it is the 1.4 which was in the process of getting a turbo at the time.
pudding:
--- Quote from: ZoliWorks ---The problem is that I can feel it boost then it dies off quite fast so it's definitely meeting the expected boost early on but it cant maintain it.
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That is how it is with a K03, which is why I went for an Edition 30 instead of a GTI.
1.4-1.5 bar boost from a K03 creates a massive spike it can't maintain, hence why it drops again sharply.
K04s keep going to 6500rpm easily, whereas the GTIs I drove fell off a cliff at 5500rpm. The GTI feels more like a diesel to me, and the K04 feels a bit more like an old school 90s turbo engine. A bit of lag but much harder hitting in the mid and top end.
On my stage 1 K04, it was spooling hard by 2200rpm and usually hit 1 bar by 2750rpm and full 1.3-1.4 bar boost by 3200rpm. That's on a stock engine. Downpipes and intakes will affect that slightly. Doesn't sound laggy on paper but it compared to a K03, it is in practice.
K03s feel quite meaty around 1800-2000rpm. In a K04 you can't feel the boost at all until at least 2500rpm.
Another consideration with the K04 is 3000rpm surging, which is why the boost needs to be capped to 1.3 bar around there as the turbo ramps up too quickly, which the engine can't physically ingest. It feels like a massive flat spot with lots of pigeon fluttering noises from the intake.
If you have open roads where you can use the full rev band, the K04 is better. If you live in urban areas and value quick response and punchy midrange over top end, stick to the K03.
ZoliWorks:
--- Quote from: pudding on March 29, 2024, 04:11:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: ZoliWorks ---The problem is that I can feel it boost then it dies off quite fast so it's definitely meeting the expected boost early on but it cant maintain it.
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That is how it is with a K03, which is why I went for an Edition 30 instead of a GTI.
1.4-1.5 bar boost from a K03 creates a massive spike it can't maintain, hence why it drops again sharply.
K04s keep going to 6500rpm easily, whereas the GTIs I drove fell off a cliff at 5500rpm. The GTI feels more like a diesel to me, and the K04 feels a bit more like an old school 90s turbo engine. A bit of lag but much harder hitting in the mid and top end.
On my stage 1 K04, it was spooling hard by 2200rpm and usually hit 1 bar by 2750rpm and full 1.3-1.4 bar boost by 3200rpm. That's on a stock engine. Downpipes and intakes will affect that slightly. Doesn't sound laggy on paper but it compared to a K03, it is in practice.
K03s feel quite meaty around 1800-2000rpm. In a K04 you can't feel the boost at all until at least 2500rpm.
Another consideration with the K04 is 3000rpm surging, which is why the boost needs to be capped to 1.3 bar around there as the turbo ramps up too quickly, which the engine can't physically ingest. It feels like a massive flat spot with lots of pigeon fluttering noises from the intake.
If you have open roads where you can use the full rev band, the K04 is better. If you live in urban areas and value quick response and punchy midrange over top end, stick to the K03.
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True, it does feel like a diesel, especially when mapped. Instant response. My daily commute is 60% urban 40% extra-urban. I don't really accelerate past 120kph unless I'm overtaking someone and that's where I feel like the K03 falls short.
This was in 4th gear from 3k to 6k. I don't think it should fall quite this fast.
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