Help me understand my incident on Nordschleife

[Janner_Sy]

my initial thoughts on the sudden jerk in steering was a loss of grip on a tyre followed by a shift of power via the LSD  caused by a small bit of oil or engine fluid of some sort on the track,  however you say that it has happened before, so it surely has to be something else.

[fuscobal]

First of all, let me tell you my LSD is a Peloquin. I must say, when it first happen, I am 100% the road had some sand/dust on the right side and the car pulled to the right (towards the dirt). time, the dirty side was probably on the left (the inside of the corner) and the car pulled towards the dirt again. My best guess is what Tony and Hurdy said :

1) LSD got tricked by a dirty zone on the track
2) Steering wheel sensor faulty wich made the ESP kick in when it shouldn't

As for the cooland, I checked the hoses and they are all ok. My guess is the coolant got out as steam/vapors wich I saw when the car stoped and this could have been because the very hot engine stopped suddenly (normally, when you drive a car to the limit, you stop and let the engine run for 1 minute or more too cool down but in this case the engine stopped instantly because it was into gear and the car stopped )!

Here's some drawings for better understanding of the dynamics >

[Teutonic_Tamer]

If you have an ATB diff such as a Torsen/Quaife/Peloquin/Stasis, then the ESP really needs to be turned OFF, especially when on a track.  The simple reason is that the ESP includes a standard component called 'electronic differential lock' or EDL.  And if this EDL kicks in at the same time as an ATB is also transferring torque, then the torque transfer across an axle could be over exagerated to the point of causing some highly undesirable traits - which are highly likely to cause an 'armco to bodypanel interface'.

Using the 'brakes' is a well-known <cough>tweak<cough> to hide an ATB diff from official racing scrutineers . . .

[laurent.d]

I realy think that your car simply slided off left on the dust and that the grip was worst than expected. Then you counter-steered while the car get back on the dry tarmac en get grip faster than expected. May be a little too much counter-steer the car unsettled by the left/right steering and you are violently thrown toward the right armco.

For ime, it's an unlucky but simply sudden change of grip because of the dust.

May be it was worst because of your ESP sensor fault.

[RedRobin]

If you have an ATB diff such as a Torsen/Quaife/Peloquin/Stasis, then the ESP really needs to be turned OFF, especially when on a track.  The simple reason is that the ESP includes a standard component called 'electronic differential lock' or EDL.  And if this EDL kicks in at the same time as an ATB is also transferring torque, then the torque transfer across an axle could be over exagerated to the point of causing some highly undesirable traits - which are highly likely to cause an 'armco to bodypanel interface'.

....Hmm, I don't seek to disagree with you and expect that you are right, but: There were some laps I recently drove on the Nordschleife with my ESP on and as I was more confident and going faster, my driving actioned the ESP very frequently. I have a Quaife ATB. This was not a problem and I ignored it and drove 'through' it staying on the throttle and on the track. Unpleasant and inconvenient having the ESP continually kicking in, but. When I switched the ESP off for the GP section of the circuit I had an off into the hard green stuff but got back on the black stuff before the kitty litter.

I've done a trackday at Spa with the ESP off and in the wet and thoroughly enjoyed it, but the Nordschleife can bite very hard and I'm not sure advising ESP there is wise unless you drive it more slowly.

[fuscobal]

Teutonic, I already said the ESP was OFF. I am always driving with ESP off because I can feel it slowing me down in every turn. For me, with this car, the difference is night and day and I simply can't drive fast with it on since it will interfere every turn !

[Teutonic_Tamer]

If you have an ATB diff such as a Torsen/Quaife/Peloquin/Stasis, then the ESP really needs to be turned OFF, especially when on a track.  The simple reason is that the ESP includes a standard component called 'electronic differential lock' or EDL.  And if this EDL kicks in at the same time as an ATB is also transferring torque, then the torque transfer across an axle could be over exagerated to the point of causing some highly undesirable traits - which are highly likely to cause an 'armco to bodypanel interface'.

....Hmm, I don't seek to disagree with you and expect that you are right, but: There were some laps I recently drove on the Nordschleife with my ESP on and as I was more confident and going faster, my driving actioned the ESP very frequently. I have a Quaife ATB. This was not a problem and I ignored it and drove 'through' it staying on the throttle and on the track. Unpleasant and inconvenient having the ESP continually kicking in, but. When I switched the ESP off for the GP section of the circuit I had an off into the hard green stuff but got back on the black stuff before the kitty litter.

But I think you are being over-reliant on the 'confidence' the ESP can give.  Maybe you somehow have some kind of 'mental block' (maybe about just being scared of turning off the ESP, or maybe the reputation of the 'Green Hell', or both).

And dispite your own preference for Goodyears, there are better tyres which will enhance the handling of the GTI.  In fact, I bet you would find it very difficult to find any serious 'Ring users who ran Goodyears.

I've done a trackday at Spa with the ESP off and in the wet and thoroughly enjoyed it, but the Nordschleife can bite very hard and I'm not sure advising ESP there is wise unless you drive it more slowly.

But the trouble is, being 'reliant' on ESP can actually mask 'bad driving'.  Look at it another way - yes, the ESP may well save you at say 50mph on a certain corner, which might mean an off with bad driving without any ESP.  But with that same bad driving, the 'off' with the ESP will simply occur at much higher speeds - with highly increased consequences.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Teutonic, I already said the ESP was OFF. I am always driving with ESP off because I can feel it slowing me down in every turn. For me, with this car, the difference is night and day and I simply can't drive fast with it on since it will interfere every turn !

Whoops, missed that.  Sorry, my bad.

[RedRobin]

But I think you are being over-reliant on the 'confidence' the ESP can give.  Maybe you somehow have some kind of 'mental block' (maybe about just being scared of turning off the ESP, or maybe the reputation of the 'Green Hell', or both).

And dispite your own preference for Goodyears, there are better tyres which will enhance the handling of the GTI.  In fact, I bet you would find it very difficult to find any serious 'Ring users who ran Goodyears.

....Yes, I'm only just recently on my third 'Green Hell' trip beginning to feel more confident and knowing about what's coming up.

My current preference for Goodyears is only for road use and I'm thinking of PS3's next for road.

I've done a trackday at Spa with the ESP off and in the wet and thoroughly enjoyed it, but the Nordschleife can bite very hard and I'm not sure advising ESP there is wise unless you drive it more slowly.

But the trouble is, being 'reliant' on ESP can actually mask 'bad driving'.  Look at it another way - yes, the ESP may well save you at say 50mph on a certain corner, which might mean an off with bad driving without any ESP.  But with that same bad driving, the 'off' with the ESP will simply occur at much higher speeds - with highly increased consequences.

....Currently I think it's wise for me to keep ESP for road driving, fast or otherwise, and decide according to the individual track whether to switch it off there or not.

[fuscobal]

Next year, if I will be going there with the same car, I will probably put on some stickier tires like R888. I've asked Teo (the owner of rent-racecar) how much of a difference can a tire like Toyo R888 make over  GY F1 asym or PS2/3 on a car like my GTI and he said probably about 15-20secs/lap !

[Hurdy]

I'd agree with 20 seconds per lap. I went out initially with normal Vredesteins on and then swapped to R888's. The difference is like night and day.

[ashley]

Dont have enough knowledge on ESP.

Did have a similar issue with losing coolant though. Not on a mk5 golf but a mk2 with a 20VT installed. Daily use no issues.

After spirited driving the level would appear to go up or down (even once the car had been left to cool). After much investigating turned out to be a dodgy seal on a coolant temp sensor. Would let the coolant out as steam and once it reached a certain level would replace it with air!