VWRacing-KW-V3 Suspension....

[RedRobin]

Many thanks for the brilliant right up RedRobin - been very informative and interesting to read.

....Thanks stiggy

When i get the suspension sorted obviously there'll be a compromise in comfort, but how much of a difference do you think there has been from standard?  Also, what difference is there between the VWR KW V3 suspension and the 'normal' KW V3?

1) - Difference in comfort from standard:

A huge difference in the feel of the ride but not seriously compromising comfort. It's never harsh, even on shallow potholes, but it is hard. The rebound is so good that even speed bumps are more comfortable because bounce is greatly reduced. Even when 'making progress' causes the car to leap a bit, she recovers so quickly and without any feeling of loss of stability - Lots of such moments might justify proper Recaro seats for more support.

At slow speeds over broken surfaces you can feel every ridge and bump but never causing discomfort. You get more intrusion from hearing the  ridges than from feeling them. She is surprisingly smooth at speed and, unless you are really pushing onwards, a longer journey doesn't move you around in your seat, so it's potentially less tiring. I'm feeling road imperfections softly but definably, in the seat of my pants but not through to my back - That's what I feel but I can't speak for someone else who might tense themselves because they have a back problem or similar.

Some people (often wifeys and g'friends) prefer a softer ride (when it comes to cars!!) and this is much to do with their expectations. Sorry, but "Oooh, I felt so comfortable, I didn't feel a thing" doesn't float my boat.

It's possible that my suspension highlights any dashboard etc squeaks but that's also down to hot and cold expansions coming from an indoor garage to the cold outside.

My new suspension makes the GTI feel more tactile and gives you much more feedback than standard - Harder but not uncomfortable in my opinion. The biggest difference from standard which immediately strikes you when going through a roundabout or bend, is how incredibly flatly planted you feel. Of course the Whiteline AntiLift kit also contributes to the turn-in and anti-roll bars contribute too - It's a package.

If you are going to The Pod meet on 1st Feb you should join the queue for a ride with me!

2) - Difference between VWR-KW-V3 and standard KW-V3:

A very good question but I don't have much driving experience (mostly passenger) of the standard V3's. The VWR versions are twintube which is unusual for a 'street' damper but allows better adjustments.
The valving and setting parameters on mine are as on the race cars but mine are stainless steel instead of galvanised. They are adjustable but to settings exclusive to VWR as a result of extensive testing on their race cars. My spring rating is exclusive too (hence the different colour). This particular version of the V3 has been produced exclusively for VWR and is designed for 'Fast Road' use and durability.

VW Racing have a longstanding technical partnership with KW Germany and play a part in feeding KW information from their experience. Their working relationship allows VWR to specify what they want manufactured for themselves and so mine were ordered specifically by Mark at VWR.

All V3's are highly rated by all and their only rival is Bilstein imo. Their adjustability allows someone like Mark to apply their very valuable setting up skills and it's because of their variability that less experienced people can find them difficult to get right. You may get them good, but will you have found their sweetest spot? Doing corner-weighting is an added fine adjustment.

I'll edit this later if I find I'm wrong, but I think that VWR's versions cost the same as normal V3's retail for. VWR/RacingLine are NOT in the market of offering cheap deals - They're not an off-a-shelf retailer, they primarily build VW race cars and also organise races. Yes, I paid a total which was more than it could have been by going elsewhere but I don't have a clue how to set up a car's suspension to its optimum and I completely trust VWR's work and value their specialist skills and excellent aftercare. My GTI is in good hands, as indeed it is with JKM for tuning and my VW dealer Loders for servicing and general help.

Finally, we are all individuals on this forum and not everyone here wants their GTI (I include Ed30 of course) to feel 'tactile' and in touch with the tarmac! Not everyone here loves the sounds of exhaust music and an engine breathing. Not everyone wants to work their gears and exercise their suspension. But if you do, doing this suspension mod will transform your car and your driving enjoyment [together with a Quaife, big brake kit, etc etc etc etc....Sorreeeeeeee! ]

As you would expect, Mark at VWR/RL is always busy but he is a genuine lover of cars (and bikes) and if you are prepared to be flexible in fitting into their race priority schedules, they will give you 200% attention and apply very valuable skills based on VW experience.

[stiggy]

^^^

That has been really helpful - thanks

What you say there is exactly how i would want the car to behave and i'm pleased to read how your car performs.  While the original chassis setup of the car is very good, i do feel that the car "rolls" in corners especially when pushed hard - so it's reassuring to hear that the car is flatter in the bends.  I would love to feel the grip more and the extra feedback in the steering wheel would be great.  The only dilemma i now have is this - as it stands i am mostly a chauffeur when driving the car, mostly to my parents and they both don't like a hard ride - the oem setup is quite comfortable for them, so i don't know how this new setup is going to change things.  Ideally i would like a demo of a car with this setup on and i'd love to come to the pod to see your car RedRobin (thanks for the offer by the way ) and see everyone else's beast (and all the faces that drive these beasts  ) but unfortuneately won't be able to attend.  So i may ask VWR if i can have a demo in their car (if they will allow me to, whenever it is convenient for them).  I was initially looking at the koni + eibach setup but have read reviews that the konis don't last as long as others (including KW) and i'd like a more long term suspension setup, so it's either the KW or Bilstein for me - and the Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).

I think this forum will get me bankrupt very soon (Right, where's this thread about DSG remaps i've heard so much about....... )

[illyun]

Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).

I have Bilstein PS9s and on the softest setting, they are quite firm.  I have them on a medium setting and on that, they are very firm    Probably not the way to go if your parents like a comfortable ride.

I think this forum will get me bankrupt very soon

I'm almost there myself 

[ukdub]

Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).

I have Bilstein PS9s and on the softest setting, they are quite firm.  I have them on a medium setting and on that, they are very firm    Probably not the way to go if your parents like a comfortable ride.

I think this forum will get me bankrupt very soon

I'm almost there myself 

I know what you mean.  We should give a prize to the first person to go bankrupt due to modding their GTI.

[RedRobin]

^^^
That has been really helpful - thanks

....Exactly why I've written it - To help by contributing to this forum which in turn helps me via the contributions of others.
Also there is always a selfish pleasure in giving to others.

What you say there is exactly how i would want the car to behave and i'm pleased to read how your car performs.  While the original chassis setup of the car is very good, i do feel that the car "rolls" in corners especially when pushed hard - so it's reassuring to hear that the car is flatter in the bends.  I would love to feel the grip more and the extra feedback in the steering wheel would be great.

 

....Indeed, the Mk5 chassis is very highly rated and the standard GTI's setup is excellent but it is nonetheless designed and produced for a mass market for numerous countries and 'enthusiasts' such as ourselves don't represent a huge percentage - Just consider the number of other GTI drivers you see on the road who never acknowledge another GTI and who drive like grannies - To them it's merely the top of the range Golf (excluding the R32 which is more obviously performance). 

The only dilemma i now have is this - as it stands i am mostly a chauffeur when driving the car, mostly to my parents and they both don't like a hard ride - the oem setup is quite comfortable for them, so i don't know how this new setup is going to change things.

 
....It doesn't sound as if your parents will like the ride from what you say. It is very hard but not harsh. You don't achieve improved handling without those 'compromises'. But to some extent it's subjective and depends what you want.

There is also the factor of 'expectations' - How many others would notice without being told? Once told, they would naturally focus on it. It's like dashboard squeaks - Once you get going you don't hear them beacuse your brain is more focussed on driving, but they're still there!

Ideally i would like a demo of a car with this setup on and i'd love to come to the pod to see your car RedRobin (thanks for the offer by the way ) and see everyone else's beast (and all the faces that drive these beasts) but unfortuneately won't be able to attend.  So i may ask VWR if i can have a demo in their car (if they will allow me to, whenever it is convenient for them).  I was initially looking at the koni + eibach setup but have read reviews that the konis don't last as long as others (including KW) and i'd like a more long term suspension setup, so it's either the KW or Bilstein for me - and the Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).

....A long while ago I drove Ray West's Mk5 GTI which was specifically built for both road and track (he has an international race licence) and his had Bilstein - It wasn't harsh - It was hard. The car was cover feature in a past issue of Volkswagen Driver.

So much is down to how expertly setup a suspension is and not just the label on the damper. You can save money by shopping around for the cheapest deal and fit coilovers yourself - But how many of us here have the experience and knowledge to find that sweet spot?

[QD MBE]

Robin,

Great write-up, and just the sort of detail that forums thrive on.

The only down side, in my opinion, is that the stance is now too low, for me that is.  I like the before pic, and the uniform gap all the way around the front wheels, it just looks right!

As i say just my opinion, and once agian, thank you for taking the time and effort to write such an informative article.

As an aside, i replaced a lower wishbone on my old MK4, and whilst none too busy at work, tracked it the way VWR did, some string across the shoulfers of the front tyres, and get the gap the same at the rear.  really high tech, and I was surprised that when I finally got around to getting the tracking sorted by laser, it required a 1/4 turn on one track rod to sort. 

The old ways are still useful!

Cheers RR 

[RedRobin]

Robin,

Great write-up, and just the sort of detail that forums thrive on.

....Thanks, stoke - I shall continue my efforts.

The only down side, in my opinion, is that the stance is now too low, for me that is.  I like the before pic, and the uniform gap all the way around the front wheels, it just looks right!

....Yes, the stance is certainly low and Mark will very willingly change it for me if I ask. However, knowing his expertise, I didn't want his setup to be led primarily by 'the look'. My brief was : -

1 - To deliver good handling for 'fast road' use. [100% achieved!]

2 - Not to be so low it was impractical for normal road use. [So far so good, over 1,000 miles]

3 - Not to result in uneven or excessive tyre wear. [Too soon to tell]

4 - Not to result in needing wheel arch modifications. [So far so good]

VWR further fine-tuned my suspension using corner-weighting. There is slightly visible camber on the rears to help keep the back end from overtaking me! And no visible camber on the fronts.

There's a degree of irony in that I've always criticised others for slamming their cars down low, but it's not the lowness itself but being led primarily by the low look that I'm critical of. I'd rather have a car which handles extremely well regardless of its look rather than an aesthetically perfect car which doesn't handle as well as it could do with its aftermarket suspension.

But, as you say, it's ETTO and we all have our individual preferences

As an aside, i replaced a lower wishbone on my old MK4, and whilst none too busy at work, tracked it the way VWR did, some string across the shoulfers of the front tyres, and get the gap the same at the rear.  really high tech, and I was surprised that when I finally got around to getting the tracking sorted by laser, it required a 1/4 turn on one track rod to sort. 

The old ways are still useful!

....I think Mark said he was only half a millimetre out and it could easily make it worse by trying to lose that.
He uses hi-vis elastic string.

I look forward to meeting you at The Pod

[stiggy]

Bilstein give a very harsh ride supposedly (anyone correct me if i'm wrong though).

I have Bilstein PS9s and on the softest setting, they are quite firm.  I have them on a medium setting and on that, they are very firm    Probably not the way to go if your parents like a comfortable ride.

I think this forum will get me bankrupt very soon

I'm almost there myself 

I think you have set the bankrupcy benchmark illyun, with all the mods you have recently done!  I think i saw one of your alloy wheels at A1 wheels in Wolverhampton - black bbs with red stripe and red bbs centre cap.  The guy showed it me as an example of the kind of job they do.  Looked mint! (another possible future cause for me to get bankrupt - thanks alot! )

[stiggy]

What you say there is exactly how i would want the car to behave and i'm pleased to read how your car performs.  While the original chassis setup of the car is very good, i do feel that the car "rolls" in corners especially when pushed hard - so it's reassuring to hear that the car is flatter in the bends.  I would love to feel the grip more and the extra feedback in the steering wheel would be great.

 

....Indeed, the Mk5 chassis is very highly rated and the standard GTI's setup is excellent but it is nonetheless designed and produced for a mass market for numerous countries and 'enthusiasts' such as ourselves don't represent a huge percentage - Just consider the number of other GTI drivers you see on the road who never acknowledge another GTI and who drive like grannies - To them it's merely the top of the range Golf (excluding the R32 which is more obviously performance). 

To be honest, when I got the car I thought there was nothing out there that can improve on what is already a fantastic car - and I knew nothing about mods.  It’s only when I started reading forums like this that i started to know more and more about my car and this has allowed me to appreciate the machine I drive more, while giving me a better understanding of my car’s potential.  I think many people drive cars such as ours and don’t realise/appreciate what is actually under the skin and don’t know that forums like this exist.

The only dilemma i now have is this - as it stands i am mostly a chauffeur when driving the car, mostly to my parents and they both don't like a hard ride - the oem setup is quite comfortable for them, so i don't know how this new setup is going to change things.

 
....It doesn't sound as if your parents will like the ride from what you say. It is very hard but not harsh. You don't achieve improved handling without those 'compromises'. But to some extent it's subjective and depends what you want.

There is also the factor of 'expectations' - How many others would notice without being told? Once told, they would naturally focus on it. It's like dashboard squeaks - Once you get going you don't hear them beacuse your brain is more focussed on driving, but they're still there!

It’s actually my dad that’s not too keen on a hard ride (mostly), although he has been quite an enthusiast in the past - just some of the cars he’s owned in the past include a vw model 412 (which he claims has been one of his best cars), 2 old beetles, 2 mkII golfs (one of which was a golf driver that saw 210,000 miles without going wrong....much), a merc 200, a merc w123 (which is 25 yrs old, we still have and has only done 45,000 miles in mint condition....apart from some rust).  But, i like your thinking - maybe if i change the suspension without letting anyone know, no-one will realise!  I think the only way I can tell for sure is a demo in a car with the setup already on.

So much is down to how expertly setup a suspension is and not just the label on the damper. You can save money by shopping around for the cheapest deal and fit coilovers yourself - But how many of us here have the experience and knowledge to find that sweet spot?

That’s the reason why I’d like to go to VWR for the suspension and other mods.  They may be slightly higher priced than the rest, but at least I know for sure i’ll get the car exactly how I want it. I think a demo in their car is the next step, which I'm going to try and organise in the next 3 weeks (after a CAT driver training course)

[RedRobin]

....

1,000-mile REPORT:

The road where I live is very badly surfaced [I'll post a pic tomorrow] - It's used by large artic lorries and local chavs who drive too fast on it, and the council authority only ever do piecemeal repairs that don't last 12 months! It's full of ridges and shallow 'potholes' where the top surface has gone.

Everytime I drive out onto this public road my suspension feeds back this broken surface information. It's softly through the seat of my pants and via the sound - Very like a suburban railway carriage on track sections. And so I am always reminded at the beginning of a journey how hard my new suspension is and I often think that although it's neither harsh nor uncomfortable, my car is no longer a luxury hatchback. It's still got all the luxuries but it's a much harder ride.

By the time I'm onto the better surfaced roads, this is quickly forgotten. And by the time a safe opportunity comes up to drive a bit more enthusiastically and bends and roundabouts are involved, I'm reminded of my suspension again - But in the most positive way possible.

This first 1,000 miles is made up of all sorts of roads and journey times - Every kind of road except unsurfaced.

I don't know what a long journey as a passenger would feel like but I think it would only upset someone who was very fussy and probably had a pain in their arse anyway! It's limits are clearly beyond those I feel comfortable driving at on public roads and so it feels safe and very enjoyable.

It dovetails perfectly with the Quaife diff and also the Whiteline AntiLift kit. The diff greatly helped my failing Koni's but works far better with my VWR-KW-V3's. It's hard but never harsh and I really can't find fault or reason for any regrets. I'll have to wait and see how my tyre wear fares with the slight camber on my rears. Inevitably in road use circumstances, I do have to lift off in a bend sometimes and so it's reassuring to know that the camber may reduce the liklihood of me being overtaken by my rear end.

[RedRobin]

....

4 months and about 4,000 miles later, I had my tyres checked yesterday and still no uneven tyre wear whatsoever due to extra camber.

This lad Mark at VWR knows what he's doing!

[jaysgti]

i would definatly agree with Robin here,

Ive had vwracing do alot of things to my car. new ko4 turbo, injectors, remap, LSD, engine and gearbox mounts, ptfe bushes all round. Their service is second to none. i have no complaints at all with their work. Mark is a really great guy and really knows his stuff. cant recommend them enough.

[Top Cat]

....

  and still no uneven tyre wear whatsoever due to extra camber.

Excuse my stupidity Robin, what extra camber have they put on your car. Have you got adjustable top mounts. 
I will be getting my set up adjusted soon and i am trying to get my head around what set up everyone has. 

[WhiteGTI]

I think Robin may mean from the WALK?? Doesn't the WALK give a very small amount of negative camber also?

[WhiteGTI]

i would definatly agree with Robin here,

Ive had vwracing do alot of things to my car. new ko4 turbo, injectors, remap, LSD, engine and gearbox mounts, ptfe bushes all round. Their service is second to none. i have no complaints at all with their work. Mark is a really great guy and really knows his stuff. cant recommend them enough.

Pics!!!!