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Author Topic: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?  (Read 37427 times)

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2009, 12:52:51 pm »

What do VWR recommend?


....IIRC, JKM are the ones who did that side of illyun's modding - Aftermarket air intake/filter.

VWR did other mods for illyun, IIRC.


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Offline illyun

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2009, 01:21:12 pm »

What do VWR recommend?


....IIRC, JKM are the ones who did that side of illyun's modding - Aftermarket air intake/filter.

VWR did other mods for illyun, IIRC.

Sorry, I didn't realise that question was aimed at me  :signIWS:

I went to VWR for my Quaife LSD and will be going for chassis mods like engine mounts, top mounts and polybushes.  I also intend to go to them for my brakes.

JKM sorted my Revo remaps and bolt-on performance mods like the EVOMS intake.

My local VW dealer is used for servicing and warranty claims  :grin:

Offline Shaun

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2009, 08:34:50 pm »
^^^^
Have a word with ITG about it.

:happy2:

OK. I have taken RR's advice and have been exchanging emails over the past few days with the technical manager at ITG.

I shall precis:

ITG apparently take 3-4 enquiries a month about oiled filters and MAF sensors. In seven or eight years they have apparently only seen one genuine case of one of their filters contaminating the MAF sensor, which was caused by the filter being massively over oiled. They evidently take great care to ensure all excess oil is removed from the filter during manufacture. The foams are passed through what is essentially a mangle to squeeze out the excess oil, leaving only a light coating on the foam. Add to this the fact that the oil used is extremely thick and tacky (it actually has to be heated to get it to flow into the foam), there is very little chance any of the oil on the filter can become airborne.

The reason there is oil in the bottom of the bag when the customer recieves the filter is because it will slowly seep and spread itself; if the filter had been packed and sat on a shelf for a few weeks, gravity will have caused some of the oil to slowly seep out and pool in the bag. Although the thought of having oil spreading itself would indicate that oil could get onto the MAF, you need to consider the design of the airbox. In 99.9% of housings the MAF is mounted above the filter, so oil can only spread into the base of the box, not the lid. The capillary action of the oil is also a key point in the way that oiled foam works. The reason ITG have to use oil on the foam is because without it there is nothing for the dust and dirt to adhere to – dry foam filters will eventually let dust pass as the constant airflow and vibrations work the dust through. As the dust starts to build up on the oiled foam, the capillary action of the oil  causes it to spread over the newly laid down dust and hold it in place – without this spreading of the oil, dry spots would form and allow the dust to tunnel its way through the foam.

Although the oil will spread, it is too thick and tacky to actually get pulled away from the filter as air passes through. This is, however, something that can apparently happen with the lighter oils that are often used on cotton gauze filters. Foam filter oil needs to be sticky so it can adhere to the foam, with cotton gauze filters the oil is intended to soak into the cotton. This means that if the filter is over oiled, it is quite likely droplets of oil will be picked up by the air as it passes through the filter.

After manufacture, the ITG filters are wrapped in paper towelling which helps wick out any excess oil that may have been left after passing through the mangle.


I don't have the technical knowledge to confirm the veracity or otherwise of the response from ITG, but I am extremely reassured by the trouble they have gone to to answer my questions on this subject. Others will no doubt make up their own minds.

Cheers,

Shaun
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Offline WhiteGTI

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2009, 08:56:33 pm »
Wow, thanks for finding that out! I would have done the same but have been busy of late!

Their reply does make perfect sense. I do still think that my filter was 'over-oiled', but thats only my opinion.

I cant be arsed to take off the engine cover and swap filters so I'll just leave the Pipercross filter in mine..! I think for the duration that I keep the car (less than 2 more years) I'll see no damage.

Thanks again for finding that information out  :happy2: :happy2:
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2009, 09:14:17 pm »
....

Great post and info, Shaun. It's more or less what they told me when I phoned but my memory brain cells are like an un-oiled foam filter!

I've taken some pics they've asked me for and so I had a close inspection of mine yesterday.

I've got every confidence in the product regardless of T_T's theories or well presented logic. For what it's worth, the mechanics/technicians at my VW dealer are impressed by it's longevity too. It's clearly doing its job.

:happy2: 8) :happy2:


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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2009, 09:17:41 pm »

I cant be arsed to take off the engine cover and swap filters so I'll just leave the Pipercross filter in mine..! I think for the duration that I keep the car (less than 2 more years) I'll see no damage.


....Doesn't it depend more importantly on what sort of mileage you do in the next 2 years?

I'd recommend closely inspecting ANY air filter at every oil-change service - That's 10k miles in my case.


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Offline WhiteGTI

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2009, 09:23:36 pm »
^^ True about the milage. I do roughly 10K per year. I think if i was keeping the car for 5-6 years, then I would take more caution. But what I'm saying is that when taking everything I've heard/read into consideration..in my opinion the benefits of using an oiled filter are next-to-nothing/minimal compared with using a dry filter for the duration that I am going to keep my car.

Hope that makes sense!!  :smiley: :smiley:
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2009, 09:45:22 pm »
^^^^
It makes sense but you have a different attitude towards your car than I do. However long or short I will keep a car, I prefer to treat it as if I was never going to sell it and keep it in tip-top running order for my own driving pleasure.

I think it comes from racing bicycles: Out 50 miles from home on a training ride and having a mechanical failure isn't much fun when you are dressed in tight body-hugging lime and pink Lycra with sponsor's advertising all over you and funny shoes with solid soles and pedal cleats!!


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Offline WhiteGTI

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2009, 09:52:58 pm »
^^^^
It makes sense but you have a different attitude towards your car than I do. However long or short I will keep a car, I prefer to treat it as if I was never going to sell it and keep it in tip-top running order for my own driving pleasure.



Oh, I too have the same attitude as yourself 99% of the time, I guess I'm just being lazy with the filter on this occasion!  :embarrassed: :embarrassed:

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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2009, 10:08:56 am »
I believe the MAF on VW's is a Hot wire type............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_airflow_sensor

Correct.  And virtually all cars with multi-point electronic fuel injection, from at least the last 10 years - generally use a hot wire MAF, instead of the rather pathetic 'vane' type air flow meter.

And if you happened to touch the wire when 'charged' it would cause a serious burn.  :scared:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2009, 10:24:58 am »
In terms of logic, I quite agree with your and T_T's comments.

But what I don't understand is why a company such as ITG who are well established and have a good reputation for air filters believe that oiling the filter is the correct way?

But the business of 'upgrading' airfilters started LONG before EFI and hot wire MAFs.  And in some very limited applications, freer-flowing air filters do have a valid use - but that is normally in a race engine, where max power is needed, and more importantly, where a 'long life' of the engine is at the absolute bottom of their priorities.  Motorbike engines also use air filters which aint made from paper - but then most motorbikes generally are NOT known for clocking up high mileages.  I doubt you'd ever find a 'sports' motorbike, such as a Fireblade or R1, which as done over 40k miles without either needing a rebuild, or is burning oil.

And K&N have a pretty poor reputation, but they still sell shed-loads of them!  :fighting:


What is the benefit (in their eyes) of oiling the filter? And why do they not hold the same opinion regarding the oil messing up the MAF etc. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but I'm just curious as to the other side of the argument!  :smiley: :smiley:

Firstly, just to clarify, the oil used is not your normal engine oil like Castrol Edge (or even that stuff which is only fit for lawnmowers - Mobil 1 :laugh:).  It is actually a very 'sticky' or 'tacky' oil - and relies on particles in the airstream actually sticking to the tacky oil.  Just imagine stripping off to your Speedos on the beach, covering yourself in oily sun-tan lotion - and then a big gust blows up a load of dry sand.  You will probably be now covered in a nasty gritty sticky mess - and you'll then need to wash it all off in the sea, and start again.  That is fundamentally how oiled filters work.

And if you don't oil a filter which is designed to be oiled - then all that grit and sh!t will just go straight into your engine, and start wearing your pistons and cylinder bores, and also find its way into the oil in your sump - not exactly the most 'healthy' way to treat an engine! :sick:
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2009, 10:35:45 am »
However, my understanding is that a paper filter (VW oem) is a 'surface' media and it's pores will start to block quite quickly. Whereas the ITG is a 'depth' media being foam and has a far greater capacity to filter (x5 is claimed).

Someone's been feeding you a does of BS again.  ALL filter mediums, be they paper, cotton, foam, or even a vintage 'oil bath' filter - all work on 'surface' filtration methods.  And anyone who is telling you that the standard VW papar filter will start to block quite quickly is blatantly lieing to you - because that is a SERIOUS misrepresentation!  The standard paper element on the GTI is good for 60k miles, and providing you don't live in a desert or a dust bowl - will definately last that long - and WITHOUT any 'blockages'.  After 30k miles, my own filter looks as good as new, and does NOT have any kind of 'blockages' or anything else to give cause for concern!


The ITG filter comes very lightly pre-oiled and it isn't necessary to keep re-oiling it AFAIK.

So that means your engine is digesting far more dirt and grit and sh!t.  The lack of oil on ITGs may save your MAF - instead, they'll just fcuk up your turbo and the rest of your engine - nice - NOT!
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2009, 10:39:17 am »
....

EVOMS offer quite a nice engine cover which can take your oem centre strip, if you prefer your engine bay looking tidier and more protection from the elements.



HTH :happy2:

But that is just like trying to polish a turd.  They are considerate enough to offer to protect the 'exterior' of your engine from the 'elements' - but don't give a fcuk about the engines internals!  :stupid:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2009, 10:44:04 am »
Spoke to Keith at JKM and obviously he cannot say for certain until the car is checked on Friday, but he thinks its unlikely to be the MAF as he has only seen this issue on older cars <2004.  He said the way to check would be to disconnect the MAF and see how it idles - you could even drive around like that as the ECU will substitute actual MAF readings for logged ones, but excessive load shouldn't be applied to the car in this case.

Unfortunately, by disconnecting the MAF and driving, you will store a shed load of DTCs (fault codes) in the ECU - not an issue if you have vag-com, but not good if you don't.  :wink:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: Panel Filter Fitment - Edition 30?
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2009, 11:15:33 am »
OK. I have taken RR's advice and have been exchanging emails over the past few days with the technical manager at ITG.

I shall precis:

ITG apparently take 3-4 enquiries a month about oiled filters and MAF sensors. In seven or eight years they have apparently only seen one genuine case of one of their filters contaminating the MAF sensor, which was caused by the filter being massively over oiled.

But 'independent' opinions would NOT agree with ITG.  Perhaps you out to also get the opinion/advice directly from say Bosch or Pierburg who manufacture the actual MAFs - they will categorically NOT support ITGs opinion.  Or how about a third opinion, from Volkswagen Germany - and ask them if using any non-standard air filter, and particularly an oiled one, will have any effect on the MAF.  Ask them if the MAF warranty will still be intact too!


They evidently take great care to ensure all excess oil is removed from the filter during manufacture. The foams are passed through what is essentially a mangle to squeeze out the excess oil, leaving only a light coating on the foam. Add to this the fact that the oil used is extremely thick and tacky (it actually has to be heated to get it to flow into the foam), there is very little chance any of the oil on the filter can become airborne.

The reason there is oil in the bottom of the bag when the customer recieves the filter is because it will slowly seep and spread itself; if the filter had been packed and sat on a shelf for a few weeks, gravity will have caused some of the oil to slowly seep out and pool in the bag.

So on the one hand, they are telling you they need to 'heat' it up in order for it to flow INTO the foam - yet stone cold British winters can cause it to then dribble out again.  There is some serious BS in those two highly contradictory comments!  :sad1:


Although the thought of having oil spreading itself would indicate that oil could get onto the MAF, you need to consider the design of the airbox. In 99.9% of housings the MAF is mounted above the filter, so oil can only spread into the base of the box, not the lid.

OK - and what about when you are in a 50mph wind.  Stand on a beach, or even next to a puddle, and be downstream of a wind - and you are certainly gonna get wet from the water being whipped up by the wind!

OH, and the Golf GTI, and all the other variants which use its engine (which happen to be part of the worlds third largest car maker) are in that 0.1% of engines - because the GTIs MAF and airbox are on the SAME LEVEL.  More BS, me thinks!


The capillary action of the oil is also a key point in the way that oiled foam works.

And?????  So it can flow by capillary action - yet had to be heated to get it applied in the first place.  More contradictions!


The reason ITG have to use oil on the foam is because without it there is nothing for the dust and dirt to adhere to – dry foam filters will eventually let dust pass as the constant airflow and vibrations work the dust through.

Exactly.  Which is why open-cell structures like foam are BAD as a filtration medium.


As the dust starts to build up on the oiled foam, the capillary action of the oil  causes it to spread over the newly laid down dust and hold it in place – without this spreading of the oil, dry spots would form and allow the dust to tunnel its way through the foam.

What an utter UTTER load of bollox.  Once the oil has absorbed a certain amount of dust and grit - that's it!  It can NOT absorb any more.  And NOR can it somehow 'create' more oil.  That is a very serious, and blatantly misleading comment!


Although the oil will spread, it is too thick and tacky to actually get pulled away from the filter as air passes through.

Hmmmmm - so it is too 'thick and tacky' NOT to get pulled off the filter by a 50mph wind in the inlet tract - yet in a ZERO windspeed, it can freely run out and pool in the bag or airbox - there must be a truely massive field of bovine deficant!


This is, however, something that can apparently happen with the lighter oils that are often used on cotton gauze filters.  Foam filter oil needs to be sticky so it can adhere to the foam, with cotton gauze filters the oil is intended to soak into the cotton. This means that if the filter is over oiled, it is quite likely droplets of oil will be picked up by the air as it passes through the filter.

'Air filter oil' is air filter oil.  Grades are NOT specific to cotton or foam or whatever.  To state that it can run from a cotton filter, yet somehow magically can NOT run from ITGs foam - is again grossly misrepresenting FACTS.

After manufacture, the ITG filters are wrapped in paper towelling which helps wick out any excess oil that may have been left after passing through the mangle.

So it would seem an epic fail, if there is a massive pool of oil in the bag!


I don't have the technical knowledge to confirm the veracity or otherwise of the response from ITG, but I am extremely reassured by the trouble they have gone to to answer my questions on this subject. Others will no doubt make up their own minds.

Reassured - sure you arn't being a little guillible?  :smiley:

And 'trouble' to answer your questions - FFS, that is the FIRST thing they should be able to do!!!!
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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