Clutch issues: update on page 2

[stealthwolf]

Okay so today I had the same issue, except it didn't start off on the motorway!

Clutch pedal hit the floor and wouldn't come back up. Had to lift it back up with my foot. It sort of sprang up when you lifted it up and it would spring down fully depressed when you touched it with your foot. But no actual resistance through the pedal travel. A bit like on/off - it would hit the floor when touched and spring back up to the top with minimal force. Anyway with some help from T_T, by pumping the pedal fast, it eventually came up to about the third of the pedal travel. From this position, I could press it down and it would come back up to that same position. But it was still 2/3rds down and had to be lifted using the foot to the top of the pedal travel.

I tried driving around the 'pod carpark and the biting point was very low but I was able to change gears. Hence I set off back home. I would change gear by pressing the clutch pedal all the way down, move the gear stick into the next gear and lifting off the clutch pedal. It would return to 1/3rd of the way up and I could stick my foot underneath it to lift it slightly and it would spring to the top. This is how I made it onto the motorway.

Next problem: Whilst on the motorway, it wouldn't respond as before. The clutch pedal acted just as above, except I couldn't change gear except without using brute force! This was quite unnerving when I was at a motorway roundabout and had to stop at some red lights. Used brute force to go into second, fourth and sixth. Getting into first, third and fifth was impossible.

Stayed in sixth gear on the M6 until I had to stop off at Corley services, feeling a bit unwell and sleepy. As the gear stick wouldn't disengage, I stalled the car whilst stationary. Turned off the ignition and suddenly I could changd gears freely. After buying some refreshments, I got back into the car, and pumped the pedal a few times with my foot, a bit like in the 'pod carpark.

Started the car up and was able to drive off as before when leaving the 'pod i.e. the clutch would work in the bottom third of pedal travel and I would have to flick the pedal back up, except this time I didn't bother with flicking the pedal up. Hence I was able to speed off the slip road and back on to the M6 driving essentially normally but with the pedal travelling only one third of its normal travel. It was a weird experience to not have to depress the clutch pedal much but the gear changes were normal and no longer required brute force. Now I can't recall the precise event here but I stayed in sixth the entire time. Don't think I bothered to change down.

The strange thing: Once coming off the M6 at Birmingham, I realised I couldn't have the same issue again as there would be a lot of juctions etc. Coming off the slip road, I think I still had gear changing problems (can't recall precisely). Anyway, I pumped the clutch pedal like before only this time I was still driving. Managed to do the trick! No more brute force and the clutch pedal came to the top of its travel. I managed to drive around Birmingham to pick up family from near the town centre without any problems. Occasionally, the clutch pedal would stick at the 1/3rd of the way up but would spring up automatically without me intervening

More surprisingly, I was able to reverse park the car into the garage without any problems. Whilst reverse parking, I realised the clutch pedal action and biting point now were not too dissimilar from when I first set out this morning. Hence the clutch hasn't been ideal ever since GTI international and maybe even before that?

I plan on going to VW on Tuesday if possible. Either way, I have just over two months of warranty left and I intend to get this clutch issue sorted before then!!!

Any ideas on what could be happening? And any ideas about how to approach VW Solihull other than kicking them in the nuts, telling them off for not sorting it out before and making sure they do it right this time?

*breathes out*

Well that felt rather cathartic! Hope it all makes sense I'm typing it all on the iPhone whilst in a rather half-dazed state.

[Greeners]

First piece of advice I can give you is to not bother taking it to VW Solihull as they are a bunch of muppets! A bit further out but worth it due to the superb customer service is Listers in Stratford.

PS, Sorry I didn't get to say bye today but glad to hear you got home ok in the end! 

[stealthwolf]

Yeah was thinking about Listers, which is why I once asked you where you went. I bought the car from VW Solihull and they've treated me right first few times but I wasn't impressed the last time I went (abs sensor damaged on vcds) and they told me the car would be ready that day, then just before I'm due to pick it up, being told it needed a part replacing (which is what I told them) plus thdy didn't look into the weird noise issue which I sounds like a wheel bearing. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt the first time. The main issue with Stratford is distance - I would need a courtesy car to be able to get back home and to get back again, as well as for regular use. At least with solihull I could get the bus there.

Anyway Nath, was good to see you! I hope the car's still clean for when the buyer picks it up! certainly looked immaculate despite the drive up. 

[gillm]

if it was my car i would check the brake fluid level and the pipework between the resi and slave cylinder , or it could be a sticky release bearing but these are hydrolic , so a fluid change might help it . whats the mileage on it ?

[stealthwolf]

23k miles. Brake fluid is topped up. Annoyingly, at the second T&D service, I was offered brske fluid change and said yes but when I took the car in, they said I didn't need it until year 4!

There was a bit of pipework that was loose but I had no idea what Sean was pulling on. The slave cylinder has been postulated by two other mechanics but as i said, VW Solihull couldn't find a fault at the time and wanted £400 for the privilege of investigating and would only refund if an issue was found!!! 

[gillm]

look into the pipe that sean was looking at . might be split causing air getting into the system

[Teutonic_Tamer]

if it was my car i would check the brake fluid level and the pipework between the resi and slave cylinder ,

The level was roughly halfway between min and max, but definately above the feed for the clutch master cylinder.  The flexy hose appeared to be in perfect condition, and all of the rigid pipes which I could physically get to without further removal of things like the battery tray were OK.

Inside the car, the pedal box was completely secure, the pedal pivot was utterly smooth with no sideways play.  And the pushrod was smoothly operating the clutch master cylinder.

And when pumping the pedal (by hand), and eventually getting some element of normal clutch action, there was no evidence of any spongyness (so no air in the fluid).

I tried bleeding the clutch, but wasn't really sucessful.  The fluid was slightly dirty, but nothing to be alarmed by, and no bubbles either.  But what did concern me was the slave cylinder - it felt 'looser' on the bell housing compared to on Greeners red GTI.


I initially thought the clutch pressure plate had gone 'over centre' due to too much wear.  Do Golf manuals have auto adjusting centre plates, or is the adjustment taken up by the slave cylinder?

or it could be a sticky release bearing but these are hydrolic , so a fluid change might help it . whats the mileage on it ?

I'm tending to agree with the sticky release bearing.  All the release bearing lube in the bellhousing could have dried up.  But are you sure the release bearing is hydraulic - ie, slave cylinder integrated into the actual circular bearing?  Or do they use a conventional release bearing with a separate slave cylinder working on a release fork?

[stealthwolf]

Okay, well I went to VW Listers in Stratford as recommended by Greeners.

They were a lot more friendly. Everyone wanted to help out even though I was awaiting a particular service person to get off the phone. He was also appreciative of my problems and helpful.

They've booked the car in for next week (work issues mean I can't do it before then) and they'll give me a loaner (which is more than VW Solihull have done). They suspect the master cylinder as opposed to the slave cylinder. I don't know whether it's because getting to the slave cylinder means dropping the gearbox out or something. The part's been ordered prospectively and they'll see if it sorts the problem out (after ruling out any other simpler causes). If not, they'll have another look.

Then concern is if it's the clutch, a new clutch + fitting would be £900 or so. Even to look at the clutch, they will want my authorisation and will charge if it's not a warrantiable part that needs replacing.

So potential outcomes:
1. Master cylinder swap sorts the problem out
2. It doesn't and the gearbox needs dropping out. If it's the slave, free.
3. If it happens to be the clutch plate that needs to be replaced, £500 or so for labour and £400 for parts. They'll offer 10% discount on both if it's the clutch so £800 or so instead.

My main concern is this: swapping the master cylinder doesn't solve the problem but masks it. I run out of the warranty period (in two months!) and then the same problem recurs. They couldn't advise me whether they would charge but suggested that I'd have to cough up. Despite the fact that the problem has been occuring whilst under warranty.  

Any ideas?

EDIT: The drive there and back was reasonable. I didn't push the car. Occasionally the pedal stuck on the way up but only after the clutch had engaged. Am slightly concerned that they may not pick up a problem either!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Okay, well I went to VW Listers in Stratford as recommended by Greeners.

You mean you take notice of what he says?   


Only joing Nathan!

They were a lot more friendly. Everyone wanted to help out even though I was awaiting a particular service person to get off the phone. He was also appreciative of my problems and helpful.

They've booked the car in for next week (work issues mean I can't do it before then) and they'll give me a loaner (which is more than VW Solihull have done). They suspect the master cylinder as opposed to the slave cylinder. I don't know whether it's because getting to the slave cylinder means dropping the gearbox out or something. The part's been ordered prospectively and they'll see if it sorts the problem out (after ruling out any other simpler causes). If not, they'll have another look.

Hmmmmm . . . . I'm gonna stick my neck out (awaits subsequent shooting down in flames).  I really don't think yours is a master cylinder issue.  Generally, master cylinders work 100% - or they leak.  There is zero evidence of fluid leak on yours.  The pushrod which connects the clutch pedal to the actuating piston inside the master cylinder is smooth in operation - and when you do get an element of normal clutch operation - the master cylinder appears to function normally.

Master cylinders, especially clutch ones are incredibly reliable - I'm struggling to remember ever changing one, on any of the various makes and types of vehicles ive worked on.

Me thinks the VW garage is just taking the easy option first, clutching at straws.  And not forgetting a nice cheque from VW UK for warranty work.

Then concern is if it's the clutch, a new clutch + fitting would be £900 or so. Even to look at the clutch, they will want my authorisation and will charge if it's not a warrantiable part that needs replacing.

Huh - do NOT agree to make any payment.  The clutch is a fully warrantable item - the only way a clutch is not covered under warranty is for 'normal wear and tear'.  I can't remember how many miles yours has - but a clutch should last at least 60k miles - irrespective of how powerful or not a car is.  For VW to demand payment, they would have to prove that either you had been somehow negligent with the clutch, or that you were say using the car either as a driving school car or a taxi.

If the VW garage still try to insist you make a payment, take the matter up with VW UK Customer Services, and if VW UK are reluctant to play ball - firmly advise them that you will seek assistance from Volkswagen Driver mag and/or What Car - they will soon authorise all warranty work, if they have any sense.

So potential outcomes:
1. Master cylinder swap sorts the problem out
2. It doesn't and the gearbox needs dropping out. If it's the slave, free.
3. If it happens to be the clutch plate that needs to be replaced, £500 or so for labour and £400 for parts. They'll offer 10% discount on both if it's the clutch so £800 or so instead.

Do NOT agree to any discount - at all.  By agreeing to discount - you are basically agreeing to pay.  This is a warranty item - and you should not have to pay anything.  Period.

My main concern is this: swapping the master cylinder doesn't solve the problem but masks it. I run out of the warranty
period (in two months!) and then the same problem recurs. They couldn't advise me whether they would charge but suggested that I'd have to cough up. Despite the fact that the problem has been occuring whilst under warranty.  

If you have already registed a 'fault' during the warranty period, and VW fail to rectify it - you have no worries about the warranty ending - the case should remain 'open'.  Though as a safeguard, when you call VW CS, make sure you get a 'case number'.

And I can refer you to an established precident - my old Audi S4 had a very similar clutch problem (pedal going to floor and not coming up) - and this was replaced and fully covered by warranty when the car was 2.5 years old.  The clutch friction plate broke up, overheated, damaged the pressure plate and the DMF - all replaced, along with the release bearing - and I didn't have to pay a penny.

Any ideas?

EDIT: The drive there and back was reasonable. I didn't push the car. Occasionally the pedal stuck on the way up but only after the clutch had engaged. Am slightly concerned that they may not pick up a problem either!

If the VW garage tries to fob you off - saying that it is normal, demand that they compare it (with both the stealer and yourself present) with another manual Mk5 Golf (it doesn't have to be an Ed30 - ANY 6 speed manual Golf will do).

HTH

[Poppa Dom]

Stealth - Sound advice from TT given above - I would be following it to the letter. Hope you get things sorted out soon.

[stealthwolf]

I really don't think yours is a master cylinder issue. Me thinks the VW garage is just taking the easy option first, clutching at straws.

I'm thinking along those lines too, which is why I said:

I don't know whether it's because getting to the slave cylinder means dropping the gearbox out or something.

The clutch is a fully warrantable item - the only way a clutch is not covered under warranty is for 'normal wear and tear'.

I told the chap my last car (fiesta) had its clutch changed after 60k - it lasted that long. I'm at 23k which is why I'm concerned. Is there something I could use to notify them that the clutch is covered under warranty? I want to avoid the "clutch is a wear and tear item" response. I think I'm going to try and get advice from VWUK before I hand the car in and see what they say.

if VW UK are reluctant to play ball

If it gets to that stage, I'm speaking to VW in Germany

Though as a safeguard, when you call VW CS, make sure you get a 'case number'.

How do I get this case number? Given that I've been to VW Solihull once and VW Stratford once, will they use the same case number or will they have different case numbers?

I didn't have to pay a penny.

This is why I bought a car with warranty - so I didn't have to faff around with this kind of thing early on.

If the VW garage tries to fob you off - saying that it is normal, demand that they compare it with another manual Mk5 Golf

I'm happy to do this once I've allowed them the first fix.

[rubber toe]

IMHO when I first heard the symptoms my first thought was the master cylinder altho it can be hard to distinguish as to a faulty master cylinder and slave cylinder sometimes. Volkswagen did have a known problem a while back with master cylinders flipping seals (especially in colder weather) and pedals staying on the floor and having to be manually lifted up , the "TPI"technical product information supplied from Volkswagen at the time stated if no visible faults on either cylinder/clutch lines then renew master cylinder 1st  as this was the most common of the 2 to go . Obviously I've not had a look at the car myself or experienced the symptoms but from what you've described and my previous experiences if I was working on the car I would be looking into changing the master cylinder 1st

[stealthwolf]

Volkswagen did have a known problem a while back with master cylinders...and pedals staying on the floor and having to be manually lifted up

This is what the tech at VW said. He stated it didn't happen any more but could potentially be a cause.

What I don't want is the problem to be buried in the sand and ignored.

[rubber toe]

Yeah can see were your coming from altho as stated before if you still have problems after your warranty expires vw customer care or the dealer should still uphold the warranty on this issue as you had registered the complaint before the warranty expired , altho with vw cs sometimes things don't turn out like that , it also has things to do with brand loyalty, main dealer services etc as to how much goodwill you generally get .

Anyways let's hope they can resolve the problem before the warranty expires so there's no dramas

[winrya]

All sound advice by tt!

For reference, I had my clutch and dm flywheel changed at midlands vw for £650. I think the cost of the new clutch was £400 fitted so don't use vw if worst comes to worst!!