Edition 30 - Large Carbon deposits on Injectors

[AnSGTI]

No I'm fully aware of this but I just don't know where to take it where I'm based (Hereford/Worcestershire) - it's currently in South Hereford Garages VW and they are consulting VW Technical concerning diagnostics. Basically if they can't find anything wrong then I'll be putting my hand in my own pocket for the diagnostic work as the warranty will only cover diagnostics if a repair is recommended, and at present it isn't.

I called the garage where I got it from today and explained how since I bought the car at the begining of August Ihave had nothing but worry concerning the problems with it. VW have had it since last Thursday now.

I appreciate your help/advice - if you can think of anything I can try I'm all ears. I've read a few articles saying people who've had similar problems have replaced their low pressure fuel pump. The tech held his hand on the bottom of my tank and said he could fell it but I can't hear it at all, not like I could on my old MKIV 1.8T

[AnSGTI]

hey no apologies needed 
they cant adjust adaptation only reset it, in fact its advised after doing any mods to the car (e.g. air intake) to see how it adapts.
huge adaptation values indicate there can be an issue, anyway I digress...

you really need VCDS to be able to read rail / pump values, not much you could by turning the key.
The fuel system is 'split'
Theres a low pressure fuel side (in tank pump which you hear running) which feeds fuel to the high pressure side (pump that runs off camshaft/fuel rail).
The hp side feeds the injectors.
So when you have issues you need to diagnose both sides.

the pump priming the low pressure side isnt going to make one bit of difference to the high pressure rail side if you get my drift.

I think it will.  It is the low pressure side which provides the large 'volume' of fuel.  If this is lacking, then the high pressure side (which delivers considerably smaller volumes) will suffer.

agreed, but my thinking was around cold start initial turns not during general running. the issue of the low pressure side not giving enough volume seems a common check once the high pressure side has been ruled out during remap issues. in some cases the in tank pump fuel filter has been implicated.
the owner talks about problems during start not during general running

So , no doing the 'key' thing isnt going to make any difference or tell you anything imho.

Disagree again.  Turning the ignition on, then leaving it for say 20-30 seconds (ideally until all the usual warning lights have gone out - airbag springs to mind), not only allows the low pressure to re-prime if needed, it also allows the throttle body alignment to complete (which occurs every time the ignition is turned on).

fair enough , try it and see if the cold start is any different

maybe just take it back to the dealer and say the starting is unacceptable? and push them a bit more...

Agreed.

thinking about this again you dont live on a steep drive do you???

Nope I don't - the street outside my house is flat, as is the car park at work and these are the palces this occurs at the moment

[john_o]

you would need someone with VCDS to log the fuel data aluded to at the bottom of this link.
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/2.0l_TFSI_(AXX/BGB/BPJ/BPY/BWA)

unless your low pressure in tank pump is somehow being lazy I wouldnt get hung up on not hearing a sound when turning the key, if it wasnt running you wouldnt get very far  so it must be running as a minimum while you are driving....

take it to a specialist (non VW) or buy/borrow VCDS and have a play around yourself

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Oh, don't forget the basics.  The low pressure fuel pump is fused via Fuse 27 in the fuse box in the end of the dash (drivers side).  Look in the free workshop manuals thread to confirm which one is F27.

Also, remove your rear seat squab, fold up the flap of carpet on the right side, and check all the connections.  The pump ECU fits into the cut-out recess in the black plastic access cover.  Remove this access cover to also reveal the actual connections on top of the fuel tank.  You'll be amazed at the amount of crud under there - quite a rust trap (for the fuel pump & sender unit fixing ring).

[AnSGTI]

OK - Update compression is fine, VW technical are now recommending that the fuel injectors are replaced. To be fair, the service desk manager has been so helpful about this and has called the warranty people and explained the situation and costs. The warranty people have said they want to send their own engineer (in the next 48hrs) to check the car over before they authorise the work. It’s looking like 4 new fuel injectors basically though according to them....

[AnSGTI]

Well the engineer came to the garage where the car is on Thursday and the technicians demonstrated the problem to him. He didn't bother to submit his report to CAR PLAN (warranty people) until this morning and they called me to say he's rejected the claim. He has basically said the problem is not worthy of a 'fix' and that "I must have purchased the car with the problem". They hadn't got all the facts straight for starters, there's dodgy idle and the car does not perform as I think it should.

I called the Alfa Romeo dealership where I got the car from and the sales rep I purchased the car through isn't in until Monday now - I spoke to someone else and explained I wanted this sorting in one way or another only to be told no one of authority to make decisions about my problem was available until Monday so I may as well call my sales rep then.

When I purchased the car I was told the 3 month warranty was pretty bullet proof - what a bloody joke! 

[AnSGTI]

Well I spoke to trading standards to see where I stand - I've owned the car 35 days and it's been in the Stealers in Hereford for 12 days now in total and if I'm honest they "hope" replacing the injectors will fix my dodgy cold starts.

I spoke to the dealer I got it from and he questioned why VW can't have the injectors tested, and also how confident they are that it's an injector problem. Basically the dealer I got it from can argue with the warranty company that the car did not have the fault when the car was purchased, and that they have a duty of care to fix it under the terms and conditions of the warranty (even though they say as the fault only occurs on cold starts then I should live with it which is such BS).

I'm also told that as I authorised investigations I have to pay the bill - so how the heck am I supposed to find out what’s wrong with the car so I can make a claim of the warranty - should I shake my magic ball so it tells me so I can then call the warranty people and get authorisation.

Do all Edition 30 owners get hesitation/stutter on start up? The engine catches and hunts/splutters at 400rpm for a few seconds before jumping to 1200rpm and idling normally? The VW garage have told the dealer I got the car from that "most people would just live with it" but I'm sorry no other car I've had before this had any starting problems so why should I except this. Catching is not the problem, it's when it catches and judders like a crack bitch on speed and is noticable from inside and outside

[Mako V12V]

AnsGTI - any update please?

Mine also gets hesitation/stutter on start up and catches and hunts/splutters at 400rpm before jumping to 1200rpm and idling normally.

Some days are better than others. I've started to leave the key turned on the starter for slightly longer which seems to be working.

My car is in next Monday for the other warranty work I mentioned but not this problem as I'd have to leave the car with them the day before. They said they would check for any fault codes.

[AnSGTI]

I´m currently away and trying to forget about it to be honest. South Hereford VW have had the car three weeks now. The supplying dealer (Alfa Romeo Dealership) are now involved and have insisted they get the injectors tested - as far as I´m aware this should have all been happening this week but given how long everything has taken I´m not holding my breath.

Oh, if I hold the key for longer I just hear my starter motor continue (while engine begins to try and run) which probably isn´t very good - someone did mention to me to check my starter motor but as I have said in previous posts my problem is when the engine catches, it seem to be startved of something for those initial few seconds.

I get back Saturday and will be heading to the dealer to see where we are - I really hope they´ve found it by now becuase my love for vdubs has slowly vanished given the worry I´ve had with this car

I´ll update more on Saturday

[john_o]

personally I would not recommend holding the starter any longer than reqd, it achieves nothing (other than risking damaging  things!)

did leaving the key for 20-30 sec make any difference like TT suggested?

[Mako V12V]

No, not with mine it didn't. Holding the starter on for what is only another half to one second longer does seem to work though.

[AnSGTI]

I can leave the key in for minutes (on battery) before starting and it makes no difference to mine either - I get back to the UK tomorrow morning so I´ll have to call the garage and see what they have to say.

[AnSGTI]

OK I spoke with the workshop manager at the garage yesterday, my injectors were removed this week and they noticed straight away that every injector had a fair amount of carbon build up. The car only has 21K on the clock, what would this point to - poor additives in a particular brand of petrol used by the previous owner?

Anyway the injectors were sent off to a local company earlier this week where they were tested. The companies test equipment would not test passed 5 or 6 BAR but they believe there is a problem with all of the injectors from testing. The injectors were returned to VW and they have now sent the injectors off to another company (sent Thursday) and they expect to get the test results verbally tomorrow. I've had the supplying (Alfa Romeo) dealer acting on my behalf while I've been out of the country this week but wasn't able to speak with them yesterday, so I'm not sure under who's instruction they decided that the injectors needed to be sent to two different companies. From what I understand it's due to the first companies limited test equipment, or at least this is what the workshop manager confirmed to me. Someone has obviously questioned the test results so this may possibly be the warranty company but I will confirm all of this tomorrow.

It is looking like my car needs 4 new injectors as VW first suggested (which my warranty company declined) - the supplying dealership has said they can get the warranty company to pay but what they need from VW is for them to confirm that fitting four new injectors WILL fix my problem, of course they wouldn't confirm whether it would or not.

Anyway what would cause all the carbon to build upon the injectors on so few miles?

[Mako V12V]

Could it be due to the fuel being used? What fuel do you put in?
Mine has 100% Shell V Power and has this issue. Thought this fuel cleans not leaves carbon deposits on the injectors?

[AnSGTI]

I have no idea what fuel was used before I purchased the car on the 2nd of August - I have used BP Super Unleaded since I have owned it, I know it's only 97RON but the price of V-Power at my local shell it about 10p per litre more expensive than a Shell 30 miles away (which is not on my route)

I never had any problem like this in my MKIV and ran that on BP Super