Edition 30 - Large Carbon deposits on Injectors

[AnSGTI]

Couldn't agree more mate - I'm not having it.

Does yours do it all the time or just on cold starts? I assume you haven't taken it in under warranty yet?

Edit: Also I should have mentioned mine used to bounce around 400RPMs for quite some time before I got the injectors cleaned - this is marginally better

[Mako V12V]

Does it on cold starts only, first thing in morn and after work bout ten hours later.
It only stalls on odd occasions. Had my Ed 30 for a year now and has been run on shell v power for 95% of the time.
If it was a characteristic then surely they'd all do it???
One positive though, pointed out to me by a mechanic; at least when the engine oil has not reached around the engine, it's only doing 4-500 rpm and not 1200+ rpm!

[Mako V12V]

And no, not taken in under warranty yet as I was hoping you'd obtain the answer for the issue (sorry that you appear to be the guinea pig in this!)
I have mentioned it to two vw dealers in passing and neither are aware of a known problem in this area.

[AnSGTI]

My VW dealer is sick of the site of me - I'm going to see if it gets any better as my fuel tank empties (fuel cleaner) although from what alot of people say it won't make that much difference to these engines.

Someone on the ukmkivs forum posted this back:

---

I had a similair start up issue where it took a while to start up in the morning as if it was running on 3 cyclinders for a second.  I ran an adapation on the manifold intake runner with VAGCOM and it cleared the fault.  I have scanned several MK5 GTIs and over half of them had faults showing for this which an adapation cleared the fault with two owners reporting it starting much better from cold. 

It may not be your fault but you have nothing to loose asking the dealer to do it with there VAS tool I am sure under the circumstances they will do it for free.  When they are at it I would get them to do the throttle body adapation aswell.

Instructions from ross-tech.

Intake Manifold Runner
Prerequisites:

◦Ignition ON
◦Engine OFF
◦System voltage at least 11.0 V.


[Select]
[01 - Engine]
[Basic Settings - 04]
Group 142
[Go!]
Activate the Basic Setting.
[ON/OFF/Next]
Wait until Field 4 shows "ADP. O.K.".
[Done, Go Back]
[Close Controller, Go Back - 06]


◦Switch Ignition OFF for at least 60 seconds.

Throttle Body
Prerequisites:

◦Ignition ON
◦Engine OFF
◦System voltage at least 11.0 V.


[Select]
[01 - Engine]
[Basic Settings - 04]
Group 060
[Go!]
Activate the Basic Setting.
[ON/OFF/Next]
Wait until Field 4 shows "ADP. O.K.".
[Done, Go Back]
[Close Controller, Go Back - 06]


◦Switch Ignition OFF.


---
I may try and find someone with vagcom and see if they can do the above for me

[Mako V12V]

Sounds promising! Anyone with vagcom nr Blackburn fancy giving this a go with mine?!

[john_o]

to be honest the issue doesnt look too bad in that video, but can imagine its REALLY annoying nonetheless.

@Ans : At this stage, Id probably just try and ignore it , or cut my losses and go to a VW specialist (not a dealer) and agree a plan with them.
or maybe get VCDS and try logging the start up yourself? (for rail pressure/fuel trims etc)

its seems better you say, but its hard to work out if the improved injector flow is a primary help (as its the real problem) or just helps a bit for a different issue. theyd still have to be suspects though as they havent been replaced !

@Mako : Im not sure what rpm the oil pump becomes effective in properly priming the system , but I wouldnt necessarily see sitting at 400rpm as a good thing compared to 1200 rpm , at least then the oil pressure is maxed and providing full film protection.

[AnSGTI]

its seems better you say, but its hard to work out if the improved injector flow is a primary help (as its the real problem) or just helps a bit for a different issue. theyd still have to be suspects though as they havent been replaced !

The injectors were tested and found to be working 'as they expect' although with reduced dispersal - they were cleaned and re-tested but yes I hear what you're saying

One thing I have noticed, or it maybe just me being pedantic, I was in stationary traffic this morning on hill pointing downwards and I didn't get any judder on idle like I've been experiencing. I'm sure you asked way I parked on  hill while trying to start a few posts back? Anyway there's a hill on a street just down from my house I'm going to try parking there tonight facing downwards and I want to see what it starts like tomorrow with gravity on my side. I am begining to come round to the fact that I may just have to live with it but  Ido also plan to get my throttle body and intake manifold runner re-calibrated over the next few days to at least see if that makes any difference

[john_o]

by all means dont stop looking for the root cause, was just suggesting VW dealers prob isnt any use any more 

[AnSGTI]

Well it's getting worse what ever it is - I don't want this car anymore so I'm going to speak to trading standards

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16099319@N03/5061478161/

Look how it shakes on start-up - it's an embarrassment

[Mako V12V]

Having seen that vid, mine does do that from time to time. Sometimes it's better than that. Once this week the engine caught at 300rpm then stalled.
I'm unsure whether you're blowing this out of proportion. Yes, it's slightly annoying but lasts only for a split second. The car drives absolutely fine in every other way so surely can't be that (mechanically) serious can it?
Certainly not a reason for returning the car?

[vRSAlex]

Just a few things to look at if they have not been looked at already:

Correct fuel pressure when cranking
Fuel pump follower
Cam timing
Cam chain tensioner is ok
Spark Plugs
Air leaks, do a pressure test
Diverter Valve
Cat is still in one piece
Turbo spins freely

You mentioned carbon build up on the intake valves, did they find anything?

How does the car perform when driving?

[AnSGTI]

Having seen that vid, mine does do that from time to time. Sometimes it's better than that. Once this week the engine caught at 300rpm then stalled.
I'm unsure whether you're blowing this out of proportion. Yes, it's slightly annoying but lasts only for a split second. The car drives absolutely fine in every other way so surely can't be that (mechanically) serious can it?
Certainly not a reason for returning the car?

Maybe your right, in fact I know you probably are - all I know is I bought a car with a warranty and it's of no use what so ever. My problem is somewhat better after it spent five weeks with VW and they cleaned the injectors (after I fight from me with VW UK) but it's certainly not gone. Would I have bought this car having seen the problem when I test drove it, probably not. When I bought the car it drove really well, yet had a slight judder (like the timing was out) then after a week I get this 3 cylinder start-up exactly how you have described. Anyway all I can think is whatever it is that's wrong, is going to cost me a bloody fortune to fix when it eventually goes kaput. Please I'm not trying to cause offence here - I've just had an email from the supplying dealer basically and my blood is boiling as they say it's a characteristic of the car and simply I should stop looking for a problem that doesn't exist.   

[john_o]

BDMAlex has some good suggestions for you there 
In all honesty I dont generally see warranties as any good anyway, unless its for obvious/serious failures, your issue falls into the 'could take lots of hrs/money to find' category. The way around it is to find an acknowledged specialist.

I doubt very much that your car has something wrong that will cause a serious failure.
Chances are the fault will change very little but car will run as normal
OR
whatever is causing the problem will just get worse, where it wont start/lots of ECU fault codes then it will be a lot more obvious whats wrong = it can be fixed straight away

Where are you in the UK?  JKM are the kind of people who have found these kind of 'tricky' faults, so its worth a long drive.
In all honesty approach a specialist, discuss what the problem is/whats already been done, then agree a diagnostic cost.
(e.g 3 hrs labour to start then an update as to whether theyve found an issue or need more time)

(I wouldnt normally recommend it but you could also say 'what the hell' and get it remapped, any flaws sensors/fuel etc are going to be highlighted sooner  ) But Id strongly recommend go to JKM get the fault fixed AND get the car remapped 

Yes it may cost some of your cash (which in an ideal world you shouldnt have to spend) but then you can then enjoy the car 

[AnSGTI]

Sorry I'm in Hereford - where are JKM based?

I can't really afford to chase this fault anymore anyway - I've just paid VW £150 (my outstanding 30%) for what can only be described as guess work. I need new rear tyres and my insurance is up for renewal this month so it's going to have to wait. I streched myself buying this car anyway - I appreciate I probably come across as a moaning old goat but I try and take care of my stuff and as soon as something goes wrong I get it fixed. I don't like faults, especially ones that I don't know how to fix which is exactly what this is.

Just a few things to look at if they have not been looked at already:

Correct fuel pressure when cranking
Fuel pump follower
Cam timing
Cam chain tensioner is ok
Spark Plugs
Air leaks, do a pressure test
Diverter Valve
Cat is still in one piece
Turbo spins freely

You mentioned carbon build up on the intake valves, did they find anything?

How does the car perform when driving?

It feels better once the injectors have been cleaned, but the idle is far more lumpy than it was before. If I tried to redline the car I would shift up well before 6K usually due to the engine noise which was loud. It seems to hit higher rpms a bit better but I'm still not convinced it sounds great at 6K + rpms

[john_o]

http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/services.htm

3hrs roughly.




ok forum people , any other suggestions that are closer to home for AnsGTI ?