Edition 30 - Large Carbon deposits on Injectors

[vRSAlex]

Never any need to get heated.  

I think the main issue is trying to find a fault from behind a keyboard.  Its much easier to have a car infront of you to then see fault codes, listen to how its running/starting etc to then use your knowledge to find the fault.  I mearly listed parts that the OP should be able to look at himself.  By the sounds of it, most things have already been looked at, which leaves other things that may or may not contribute to the starting issue.

There have been quite a few reports of poorly running cars due to excessive build up on the intake valves.  Maybe I should have changed it from carbon  to sludgy oil.  The title has been changed from the original to have the 'Large Carbon deposits on Injectors' added after that issue had been found.

The DV could be letting in air from atmosphere if there is a substantial crack etc.  So its worth giving it a visual check.

When I say you can pressure test before the turbo I dont mean just checking the intake, i mean you can add the pressure before the turbo which will then pressure test the whole system up to head.  Just a miss understanding of what I meant.  Everyone should be able to read my mind  

Cats also get damaged from excess heat.  They can shrink and then block pipework.  More common on aftermarket cats, but ive seen collapsing on oem cats too.

Im not trying to cause extra expenson on the OP.

 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Never any need to get heated.  

True - I'm probably well guilty of that, sorry.  Anyhow, I'm not getting heated - just 'pasionate'! 

I think the main issue is trying to find a fault from behind a keyboard.  Its much easier to have a car infront of you to then see fault codes, listen to how its running/starting etc to then use your knowledge to find the fault.

You are so right!  'Suppose that is one of the main perils we run as forumites!

I mearly listed parts that the OP should be able to look at himself.  By the sounds of it, most things have already been looked at, which leaves other things that may or may not contribute to the starting issue.

I guess you meant well with your intentions  - and I suppose you wanted to make sure you touched all 'bases'.  I just reckon that too MUCH info can potentially be as bad as too little.  I suppose you are damned if you do, damned if you dont!  Anyway, peace mate! 

There have been quite a few reports of poorly running cars due to excessive build up on the intake valves.  Maybe I should have changed it from carbon  to sludgy oil.

I'm not convinced this as big a problem as is being made out.  Don't forget, the vast majority of these claims come from America - where they have very poor fuel quality (compared to Western Europe), and use poor quality oils.  North American fuels still contain very high levels of sulfur (which is the reason why North American FSI engines can't run in lean-burn mode, and why ALL European cars in North America are not recommended to use longlife oils - which are invariably mid- or low-SAPS).

Threre must now be millions of direct injection cars on Europes roads (VW Group with their FSI, Mitsubishi with their GDI - and now Porsche, BMW and Ford are all introducing the technology), yet there is not a sniff of an 'epidemic' relating to sludged up valves!

The title has been changed from the original to have the 'Large Carbon deposits on Injectors' added after that issue had been found.

Sorry, didn't realise that.

The DV could be letting in air from atmosphere if there is a substantial crack etc.  So its worth giving it a visual check.

Hmmmm . . . technically, you may be right.  But I'd find it hard to believe it possible to cause that kind of physical damage - weather bolted onto the K03, or remote on the K04.  And if is was like that, you'd hear it leak, and feel the performance loss.

When I say you can pressure test before the turbo I dont mean just checking the intake, i mean you can add the pressure before the turbo which will then pressure test the whole system up to head.  Just a miss understanding of what I meant.  Everyone should be able to read my mind  

Oi - I think like that too!!! 

Cats also get damaged from excess heat.  They can shrink and then block pipework.  More common on aftermarket cats, but ive seen collapsing on oem cats too.

Hmmmm.  OEM ceramic cats should never get damaged from excess heat.  Ceramics have a truely massive thermal tollerance - sommat like 2,500 degC.  Indeed, modern cars actually inject fuel during the exhaust stroke to then burn in the actual cat to quicly ramp up its operating temperature.

You may be right with steel substrate cats though.  But then OEM-wise, no Volkswagens have steel cats, they are all ceramic.  And only 'RS' (and R8) Audis have steel - normal Audis, and even 'S' Audis also have ceramic.

Im not trying to cause extra expenson on the OP.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to point the finger at you personally.  It was more of a generalisation, mainly aimed at stealers who repeately mis-diagnose, whilst charging their customers!

[vRSAlex]

 

The main OEM cat that ive seen start to shrink was on 3 or 4 MK4 R32/MK1 TT 3.2 cats.  Another one that APS had in had fully collapsted.  The were metal cats.  Al the 1.8T S3's/TT quattro cars have metal cats too.

Its only really the A4's etc that have the ceramic cats.  Get alot more money for them down the scrappy!

Im only really going off the cats ive removed from turbo cats on this one.  The FSi's are ceramic.

Alot of the direct injecton dervs are common for intake/valve sludge build-up.  This really affects performance.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

The main OEM cat that ive seen start to shrink was on 3 or 4 MK4 R32/MK1 TT 3.2 cats.  Another one that APS had in had fully collapsted.  The were metal cats.  Al the 1.8T S3's/TT quattro cars have metal cats too.

R U sure?  I know that all 180PS 1.8 20vT have ceramics, and I thought the S3 was the same.  The S4, S5, S6 & S8 are all ceramic.  TTs tend to not interest me . . . .  And I'm fairly sure the Mk5 R32 & Mk2 A3 3.2 are also ceramic.

Alot of the direct injecton dervs are common for intake/valve sludge build-up.  This really affects performance.

Hmmmmm . . . . now that . . . . I really have to disagree with.  Direct injection diesels have been around since the early 1970s.  I used to work on commercial vehicles, including the mighty 14.8 litre Cummins V8 (which had a very ingenious injection system, similar to VAG Pumpe Duse) - and again, not an issue.  Diesel doesn't burn hot enough to create hard sludge.

[AnSGTI]

Err Hello 

Just a quick thank you to everyone that’s posted. I should probably change the title to this thread me thinks..... Anyway the injectors were cleaned and since I've had the car back I can still feel a stutter on start-up but after showing a few friends/work colleagues, in all honesty I think they're wondering what the hell I'm smoking as to them it sounds fine. I can still hear that stutter and it's definitely worse the longer the car is left to sit.

All I have noticed since having the car back is that it judders significantly more on idle, and appears to be worse while the car is facing uphill which still makes me lean towards a fuelling issue but I'm still fishing in the dark. I have also noticed if the car is facing down hill (idling, i.e. stationary traffic) the judder is no where near as bad. Maybe I'm just  and it's nothing

Teutonic_Tamer - You're not the first person to tell me I'm coming off the starter to early, I never have this problem in any other car I drive (girlfriend/parents/hire car with work) nor any of my previous golf’s, the ED30 being my 3rd  I'll try holding a little longer - it's just with my very first car the ignition switch locked on (OK I admit it was a Corsa) and burnt out my starter motor so had kind of learnt this could happen from that experience, especially given the mechanic I used didn't bother to replace the ignition switch so 2 months later I had to replace another starter motor.

Ideally what I'd like to do is find someone off here with VAG COM who has made some good suggestions at what the issue could be. I will happily pay for your time, at least to satisfy my mind that I'm worrying about nothing.

Oh and as stated, the car goes very well – in fact I'd say it pulls even better after the injectors have been cleaned

[vRSAlex]

The main OEM cat that ive seen start to shrink was on 3 or 4 MK4 R32/MK1 TT 3.2 cats.  Another one that APS had in had fully collapsted.  The were metal cats.  Al the 1.8T S3's/TT quattro cars have metal cats too.

R U sure?  I know that all 180PS 1.8 20vT have ceramics, and I thought the S3 was the same.  The S4, S5, S6 & S8 are all ceramic.  TTs tend to not interest me . . . .  And I'm fairly sure the Mk5 R32 & Mk2 A3 3.2 are also ceramic.

Deffo metal on the TT and S3's.  The MK5 R32's are ceramic, but the MK4's are not.

Alot of the direct injecton dervs are common for intake/valve sludge build-up.  This really affects performance.

Hmmmmm . . . . now that . . . . I really have to disagree with.  Direct injection diesels have been around since the early 1970s.  I used to work on commercial vehicles, including the mighty 14.8 litre Cummins V8 (which had a very ingenious injection system, similar to VAG Pumpe Duse) - and again, not an issue.  Diesel doesn't burn hot enough to create hard sludge.
[/quote]

Not hard sludge.  Soft sludge.  Seen loads of the old 1.9tdi's and some PD's very blocked up with sludge.  Had an A8 4.2V8 derv in a few months back and the inlet was nearly blocked with sh*t.  Drives like a new car now.  The parts washer wasnt amused!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

All I have noticed since having the car back is that it judders significantly more on idle, and appears to be worse while the car is facing uphill which still makes me lean towards a fuelling issue but I'm still fishing in the dark. I have also noticed if the car is facing down hill (idling, i.e. stationary traffic) the judder is no where near as bad. Maybe I'm just  and it's nothing

HooooKaaaayyyy.  Dunno if I (or anyone else) mentioned this - change your fuel filter.  This is sited under the car next to the petrol tank.  This is overlooked, but is quite important because it basically controls the low pressure side of the fuel delivery (which is more likely to be affected by gravity).  The fuel filter includes a fuel pressure regulator, which basically returns excess fuel, supplied by the in-tank lift pump, back into the fuel tank.  If the pressure regulator is faulty, it might not be building up enough pressure in the low pressure side to fully supply the high pressure FSI pump.  I just changed mine at 4yrs/40k miles, and there was some resistance when giving it a blow job trying to blow through it.  New one is £20 +vat, part no 1K0 201 051 C.

Teutonic_Tamer - You're not the first person to tell me I'm coming off the starter to early, I never have this problem in any other car I drive (girlfriend/parents/hire car with work) nor any of my previous golf’s, the ED30 being my 3rd  I'll try holding a little longer - it's just with my very first car the ignition switch locked on (OK I admit it was a Corsa) and burnt out my starter motor so had kind of learnt this could happen from that experience, especially given the mechanic I used didn't bother to replace the ignition switch so 2 months later I had to replace another starter motor.

NOT holding the starter long enough is quite an endemic problem.  Modern cars with push button starters (such as my RS4, Reno Meganes, etc) or similar eliminate this problem.  Even if I only press the starter button for say half a second, the starter will continue to crank for as long as it takes.  If you've run the tank dry, or got a flatish batt, the starter will crank for 15-20 seconds.

Secondly, ALL starter motors have an over-running gear.  Think of the over-running rear hubs on bicyles (normal ones, not like fixed gear that Hoy and Pendleton ride ) - when you pedal to accelerate, the drive is transmitted to the rear wheel - but when you go down a steep hill, the rear wheel spins faster than you can pedal.  Starter motors are the same - once the engine fires and idles, it over-runs the starter.  Most modern starters also have a thermal cut out - a bit like a circuit breaker, so shouldn't burn out.

Ideally what I'd like to do is find someone off here with VAG COM who has made some good suggestions at what the issue could be. I will happily pay for your time, at least to satisfy my mind that I'm worrying about nothing.

Where are you based?

Oh and as stated, the car goes very well – in fact I'd say it pulls even better after the injectors have been cleaned

[Teutonic_Tamer]

The main OEM cat that ive seen start to shrink was on 3 or 4 MK4 R32/MK1 TT 3.2 cats.  Another one that APS had in had fully collapsted.  The were metal cats.  Al the 1.8T S3's/TT quattro cars have metal cats too.

R U sure?  I know that all 180PS 1.8 20vT have ceramics, and I thought the S3 was the same.  The S4, S5, S6 & S8 are all ceramic.  TTs tend to not interest me . . . .  And I'm fairly sure the Mk5 R32 & Mk2 A3 3.2 are also ceramic.

Deffo metal on the TT and S3's.  The MK5 R32's are ceramic, but the MK4's are not.

OK, thanks for clarifying.

Alot of the direct injecton dervs are common for intake/valve sludge build-up.  This really affects performance.

Hmmmmm . . . . now that . . . . I really have to disagree with.  Direct injection diesels have been around since the early 1970s.  I used to work on commercial vehicles, including the mighty 14.8 litre Cummins V8 (which had a very ingenious injection system, similar to VAG Pumpe Duse) - and again, not an issue.  Diesel doesn't burn hot enough to create hard sludge.

Not hard sludge.  Soft sludge.  Seen loads of the old 1.9tdi's and some PD's very blocked up with sludge.  Had an A8 4.2V8 derv in a few months back and the inlet was nearly blocked with sh*t.  Drives like a new car now.  The parts washer wasnt amused!

Maybe these current 'high performance' diesels are creating higher combustion chamber temps.  Anyone logged EGTs on a TDI 140 or 170? 

[AnSGTI]

OK - When I got in the car to come home from work this evening I was determined not to let go of the starter too early. Anyway the car still stuttered, but to me it appeared to stutter a bit longer as though it was the starter was dragging the engine somehow.

All I have noticed since having the car back is that it judders significantly more on idle, and appears to be worse while the car is facing uphill which still makes me lean towards a fuelling issue but I'm still fishing in the dark. I have also noticed if the car is facing down hill (idling, i.e. stationary traffic) the judder is no where near as bad. Maybe I'm just  and it's nothing

HooooKaaaayyyy.  Dunno if I (or anyone else) mentioned this - change your fuel filter.  This is sited under the car next to the petrol tank.  This is overlooked, but is quite important because it basically controls the low pressure side of the fuel delivery (which is more likely to be affected by gravity).  The fuel filter includes a fuel pressure regulator, which basically returns excess fuel, supplied by the in-tank lift pump, back into the fuel tank.  If the pressure regulator is faulty, it might not be building up enough pressure in the low pressure side to fully supply the high pressure FSI pump.  I just changed mine at 4yrs/40k miles, and there was some resistance when giving it a blow job trying to blow through it.  New one is £20 +vat, part no 1K0 201 051 C.

Teutonic_Tamer - You're not the first person to tell me I'm coming off the starter to early, I never have this problem in any other car I drive (girlfriend/parents/hire car with work) nor any of my previous golf’s, the ED30 being my 3rd  I'll try holding a little longer - it's just with my very first car the ignition switch locked on (OK I admit it was a Corsa) and burnt out my starter motor so had kind of learnt this could happen from that experience, especially given the mechanic I used didn't bother to replace the ignition switch so 2 months later I had to replace another starter motor.

NOT holding the starter long enough is quite an endemic problem.  Modern cars with push button starters (such as my RS4, Reno Meganes, etc) or similar eliminate this problem.  Even if I only press the starter button for say half a second, the starter will continue to crank for as long as it takes.  If you've run the tank dry, or got a flatish batt, the starter will crank for 15-20 seconds.

Secondly, ALL starter motors have an over-running gear.  Think of the over-running rear hubs on bicyles (normal ones, not like fixed gear that Hoy and Pendleton ride ) - when you pedal to accelerate, the drive is transmitted to the rear wheel - but when you go down a steep hill, the rear wheel spins faster than you can pedal.  Starter motors are the same - once the engine fires and idles, it over-runs the starter.  Most modern starters also have a thermal cut out - a bit like a circuit breaker, so shouldn't burn out.

Ideally what I'd like to do is find someone off here with VAG COM who has made some good suggestions at what the issue could be. I will happily pay for your time, at least to satisfy my mind that I'm worrying about nothing.

Where are you based?

Oh and as stated, the car goes very well – in fact I'd say it pulls even better after the injectors have been cleaned

I had considered replacing the fuel filter next - I think I'll get one tomorrow and see if someone near by where I work can fit it for me.

I'm based in Hereford and judging by my searches on here, golfgtiforum, uk-mkivs etc. a fair way from anyone with VAG COM who knows how to interrogate the measuring blocks and understand the results.

Thanks for all your input by the way 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

You don't need VCDS to replace the fuel filter.  In fact, you only need one tool - Philips No2 screwdriver (or was it a Tx20 Torx driver).  The fuel lines are all quick release, and can be done by hand.  If you can jack up a car and change a wheel, then you can arguably change the fuel filter.

Oh - when you do change the fuel filter, try to make sure the tank is less than a quarter full.

[AnSGTI]

Doh!! I filled up on my way home this evening

[AnSGTI]

Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.

Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.

Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp

Maybe the K version is a later revision.  I bought my C version about 2-3 months ago - so possibly.  My ETKA is seriously out of date though - so I can't even check your new number!

Anyway, have you purchased it?  If so, it should be cylindrical, made from aluminium alloy, about the size of heinz soup for one can (with a slighly stepped diameter at one end).  One end will have one connection in the centre, the other end has two connections - one in the centre and one offset.  It should also have '6.4 bar' stamped on it.  Oh, it might have some black lettering on it - 'UFI 31 840 00'.

HTH

[Top Cat]

Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.

Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp

Maybe the K version is a later revision.  I bought my C version about 2-3 months ago - so possibly.  My ETKA is seriously out of date though - so I can't even check your new number!

Anyway, have you purchased it?  If so, it should be cylindrical, made from aluminium alloy, about the size of heinz soup for one can (with a slighly stepped diameter at one end).  One end will have one connection in the centre, the other end has two connections - one in the centre and one offset.  It should also have '6.4 bar' stamped on it.  Oh, it might have some black lettering on it - 'UFI 31 840 00'.

HTH

TT the reason you cant check it on ETKA is how you are searching. Dont look for letters, you need to look for varieties. Everyone knows that Heinz do 57 types. 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Stopped off at VW on my way into work this morning, I gave them my registration number and they came back with fuel filter part number 1K0 201 051K.

Does this mean it's just a later revision than the part number you supplied? A garage around the corner said they'd fit it for a £10 so I'm just going to get them to do it on a ramp

Maybe the K version is a later revision.  I bought my C version about 2-3 months ago - so possibly.  My ETKA is seriously out of date though - so I can't even check your new number!

Anyway, have you purchased it?  If so, it should be cylindrical, made from aluminium alloy, about the size of heinz soup for one can (with a slighly stepped diameter at one end).  One end will have one connection in the centre, the other end has two connections - one in the centre and one offset.  It should also have '6.4 bar' stamped on it.  Oh, it might have some black lettering on it - 'UFI 31 840 00'.

HTH

TT the reason you cant check it on ETKA is how you are searching. Dont look for letters, you need to look for varieties. Everyone knows that Heinz do 57 types. 

Huh - BS!  If you DON'T include the letters, you'll never get the correct part!  I just searched with the C letter - and the part came up just fine.

Unless, that is, you are using sommat other than genuine ETKA - or maybe you are running 7.2?