Edition 30 - Large Carbon deposits on Injectors

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Lookin forward to hearing about your fuel filter replacement results!

What's the history of yours?  How old?  How many miles?  What servicing regime?  What brand & spec of oil?

Reg May 08, purchased Oct 09 with nearly 12k miles, one owner, Oct 10 now on 20300 miles.
Serviced by VW May 09 with Helix, May 10 with ? - VW approved oil, think 5W 30. Time/distance.

Oh boy - there are 23 different types of Shell Helix - ranging from 20w50 straight minerals, to 0w30 General Motors specific fully synthetic!  Now I ain't saying that a VW garage will stock a GM-specific brew (even though TPS stock a Ford Zetec-only Synta Z! - wtf?) - but there are Helix oils with VW approvals, but which are not suitable for an FSI turbo engine.

And it gets worse with 'VW approved oil'!  Mineral oils are approved - for Mk1 Golfs.  The fact that they havn't recorded the brand is worrying.  My guess is that they have just used inferior spec oils for T&D.  I'd personally recommend doing an interim oil change with quality LL3 oil - and then supply your own oil on future services.

[AnSGTI]

 

My head hurts 

I'm not really sure why I should be chasing this issue anyway, I've not had the car 3 months and it's already cosy me almost £200. If it's poor fuel, why does it only do it when left to stand (overnight, car park at work 8ish hrs)? If it's been running a few minutes it starts perfectly. I've had a compression check and everything was perfect.

VW didn't have any fuel cleaner, they never stocked their own. The head tech's dad has an independant garage and had recommended Forte to him so he got me some through the dealer I think.

Just spoke to Halifax VW - 10W40 was used according to them over the phone, I have an invoice at home in the service book for the last service so would be intrested to see the part number for the oil. They seemed pretty sketchy over the phone even though I gave them the registration plate

[Mako V12V]

My posting about oil was whilst at work and from memory.  I'll confirm the exact oil specs later!
 

[Teutonic_Tamer]

My head hurts 

I'm not really sure why I should be chasing this issue anyway, I've not had the car 3 months and it's already cosy me almost £200. If it's poor fuel, why does it only do it when left to stand (overnight, car park at work 8ish hrs)? If it's been running a few minutes it starts perfectly. I've had a compression check and everything was perfect.

I can't remember about your warranty - was it sommat to do with an Alfa garage?

Anyway, starting.  I have another theory.  The FSI system uses two fuel circuits - a conventional low pressure circuit (just like old skool fuel injection) - which delivers a high volume but relatively low pressure (6.4 bar).  And then there is the high pressure side - is a low volume (relatively) but high pressure (130 bar).  The high pressure side should keep a residual pressure in the common rail which supplies the four injectors (you have to manually release the pressure when working on the high pressure side) - and I reckon that some motors may not be holding enough residual pressure overnight.  And then the engine needs to be physically turning before the high pressure can be fully built up again.  Have you read the 'cold start' thread in this section?

VW didn't have any fuel cleaner, they never stocked their own. The head tech's dad has an independant garage and had recommended Forte to him so he got me some through the dealer I think.

Ahhh - that computes.    It is usually the independents which Forte target.

Just spoke to Halifax VW - 10W40 was used according to them over the phone, I have an invoice at home in the service book for the last service so would be intrested to see the part number for the oil. They seemed pretty sketchy over the phone even though I gave them the registration plate

Right - that is BAD - 10w40 is categorically NOT approved for ANY official VW workshop use.  Speak to the 'Dealer Principal', and basically tell him you will be reporting their dealership to Volkswagen UK - for using blatantly WRONG oils.  If he argues - ask that he accompanies you to their parts desk, and that you both look at ETKA whilst their parts monkey inputs your VIN.  Get them to go to model group 1 (engine), then illustration number 100-98.  It categorically states that ONLY 5w30 LongLife 3 504.00 oils are used.  Then go to the service manager, and get him to call up ELSA - in Autumn 2008 - Volkswagen Germany head office expressly TOLD (via ELSA) that ONLY LongLife 3 oils were to be used, from December 2008, for ALL vehicles serviced at official VW dealers - even if vehicles were on T&D servicing (OK, there are two exceptions - the 2.5 R5 TDI as fitted to the Transporter, and the other, the 5.0 V10 TDI PD from the Tourareg).

It makes my f*@king blood BOIL when stealers use the wrong oil.  Basically, that 10w40 oil is ONLY certified to be used in non-PD diesels made before 2000 - it does not have any petrol engine approvals.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

My posting about oil was whilst at work and from memory.  I'll confirm the exact oil specs later!
 

Oh, OK.  But you may have gathered that the correct oil is rather important in these engines.

[AnSGTI]

My head hurts 

I'm not really sure why I should be chasing this issue anyway, I've not had the car 3 months and it's already cosy me almost £200. If it's poor fuel, why does it only do it when left to stand (overnight, car park at work 8ish hrs)? If it's been running a few minutes it starts perfectly. I've had a compression check and everything was perfect.

I can't remember about your warranty - was it sommat to do with an Alfa garage?

Anyway, starting.  I have another theory.  The FSI system uses two fuel circuits - a conventional low pressure circuit (just like old skool fuel injection) - which delivers a high volume but relatively low pressure (6.4 bar).  And then there is the high pressure side - is a low volume (relatively) but high pressure (130 bar).  The high pressure side should keep a residual pressure in the common rail which supplies the four injectors (you have to manually release the pressure when working on the high pressure side) - and I reckon that some motors may not be holding enough residual pressure overnight.  And then the engine needs to be physically turning before the high pressure can be fully built up again.  Have you read the 'cold start' thread in this section?

Just spoke to Halifax VW - 10W40 was used according to them over the phone, I have an invoice at home in the service book for the last service so would be intrested to see the part number for the oil. They seemed pretty sketchy over the phone even though I gave them the registration plate

Right - that is BAD - 10w40 is categorically NOT approved for ANY official VW workshop use.  Speak to the 'Dealer Principal', and basically tell him you will be reporting their dealership to Volkswagen UK - for using blatantly WRONG oils.  If he argues - ask that he accompanies you to their parts desk, and that you both look at ETKA whilst their parts monkey inputs your VIN.  Get them to go to model group 1 (engine), then illustration number 100-98.  It categorically states that ONLY 5w30 LongLife 3 504.00 oils are used.  Then go to the service manager, and get him to call up ELSA - in Autumn 2008 - Volkswagen Germany head office expressly TOLD (via ELSA) that ONLY LongLife 3 oils were to be used, from December 2008, for ALL vehicles serviced at official VW dealers - even if vehicles were on T&D servicing (OK, there are two exceptions - the 2.5 R5 TDI as fitted to the Transporter, and the other, the 5.0 V10 TDI PD from the Tourareg).

It makes my f*@king blood BOIL when stealers use the wrong oil.  Basically, that 10w40 oil is ONLY certified to be used in non-PD diesels made before 2000 - it does not have any petrol engine approvals.

Yes I purchased the car from an Alfa Romeo dealership in Yorkshire (a fair treck from Herefordshire) - it came with a three month warranty.

I have read the cold start thread several times - holding the starter longer doesn't help, in fact it seems to cause the engine to stutter more I'd say.

Does this mean the engine is foo barred then having been run on 10W40? As I say they were pretty sketchy and I have an invoice at home with the oil part number on it so will confirm when I get home later.

[Mako V12V]

First service June 09: 9680 miles: oil Helix Ultra VX 5W-30
Second service may 10: 16653 miles: oil Helix HX7 AV 10W-40

[AnSGTI]

Glad to see your car has had 10W40 - I just called 4 different dealers in the area (ish) and they all said T&D = 10W40.

My case manager with VW UK gave me a missed call earlier, I've been pretty busy so will have to give her a call tomorrow morning but I may ask her what she thinks of this. I'm getting the fuel filter changed tomorrow morning so I'll report back if it improves my judder at least (as the car will have been running to get to the garage)

[AnSGTI]

Had the fuel filter changed this morning, made no difference to the starting or shudder/judder I get on idle when stationary.

Anyway I had to scrape frost off the windows this morning so as you can imagine it was pretty cold. When I got in the car I was expecting it to be difficult to start. I turned the ignition on and waited for the lights to go out, then when I tried to start the car it took a little longer than usual for the engine to catch (not very long though) but when it caught it started straight up with no stutter.

I mentioned all of this to the specialist and he said temp sender maybe - he checked it through VCDS but it seemed to be reporting the right temperature. The mystery continues...

On another note some kind bint in a Peugeot decided to take my OS door mirror out this morning. Plastic case is scuffed, small graze right on edge but I need a new indicator unit that's for sure as the lens is broken. She just carried right on as well around the corner so couldn't get her plate- couldn't believe it. I picked up the pieces of her mirror as well

[Mako V12V]

Very interesting. So results are inconclusive at mo. Let me know what it's like tomoz plz. May need a couple of days to know for sure if it's worked or not?

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Does this mean the engine is foo barred then having been run on 10W40? As I say they were pretty sketchy and I have an invoice at home with the oil part number on it so will confirm when I get home later.

No, your engine should not be foo barred from the 10w40.  After all, it is better sump full of fresh-ish 'wrong' oil, than it would be to have a nearly empty sump of 1 or 2 year old 'correct' oil.

But there are quite a few issues relating to using wrong oil.  One issue is that of the fundamental design of the engine - the oil pump in the 2.0 TFSI was originally designed to pump 0w30 oils (from the LongLife 2 oil era).  OK, VW have subsequently revised their oil specs around 5w30 oils.  But to get an engines oil pump to work with thicker oils - it will cause lubrication issues - many issues.  Sticking purely with the 10w40 viscosity - it will worsen your fuel consumption, and it will not lubricate as effectively when cold.

But the real killer conundrum with a '10w40' oil is that it is invariably a mineral oil - or a semi-synthetic at best.  Now any competent technical person who works on cars will be horified at putting anything other than a fully synthetic oil in a petrol engine with a turbo!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

First service June 09: 9680 miles: oil Helix Ultra VX 5W-30

Very good oil.  Fully synthetic and VW 504.00 & 507.00 approved - ie, 'LongLife 3' spec.

Second service may 10: 16653 miles: oil Helix HX7 AV 10W-40

SH!T oil  - change it ASAP.  This is claimed as a 'semi-synthetic', however, it uses 'Group3' basestocks - which the Yanks claim as 'synthetic', but the European Union has deemed as being illegal to call Gp3s 'synthetic'.  Gp3 basestocks are simply a hydrocracked mineral oil (sometimes called a 'synthesised hydrocarbon fluid', or SHF) - and these turn to solid 'coke' in turbo bearings.  More importantly, this oil does NOT have any VW approval for petrol engines - it merely has 505.00 approval - which is a dinosoar spec diesel engine oil approval (and does not even include PD).  Look on Shell.co.uk, or Google it for the full woeful spec.

Seriously - get this sh!t drained and refilled with the correct oil.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Glad to see your car has had 10W40 - I just called 4 different dealers in the area (ish) and they all said T&D = 10W40.

Then they ALL blatantly do NOT know the fundamental basic of VW oil requirements.

First, VW have completely DELETED all requirements for viscosity grades, and this has been the case since 1999 - over 20 years ago!!!!!

Second, VW engine oil requrements are now ONLY based on VWs own oil specification standards.  The ONLY standard permissible in ALL franchised workshops is VW 504.00 for petrol engines and 507.00 for diesel engines - aka 'LongLife 3' oils - even when T&D regime is used (home mechanics and independent motor trade are still free to choose from two, and there are two very specific TDIs which are exempt).  This instruction was issued for implementation from December 2008.


Seriously, you need to find some better stealers, or independents.  Or supply your own oils.

[Mako V12V]

You appear very passionate annoyed by vw's apparent oil cock-up. Would you care to ring a vw dealer yourself and "discuss" this issue with them as you'll be able to fight ur corner very well.
Please report back your findings as to whether you think the main dealer will just change my engine oil foc on the say so of one person's comments on an Internet forum (rightly or wrongly).
Cheers

[Teutonic_Tamer]

You appear very passionate annoyed by vw's apparent oil cock-up. Would you care to ring a vw dealer yourself and "discuss" this issue with them as you'll be able to fight ur corner very well.
Please report back your findings as to whether you think the main dealer will just change my engine oil foc on the say so of one person's comments on an Internet forum (rightly or wrongly).
Cheers

Huh - yes, I AM passionate about oil - and most who know me on this forum would tend to agree that I know my stuff when discussing oils.

Dealers - as much as I don't care for my own local stealers, the DO know about the using only LL3 oils - they only use Castrol SLX Professional Powerflow LongLife 3 in their workshop (except for those to oil burners mentioned earlier) - so why the need for me to phone my dealer asking them to do something they already do?

And rather than dissing me as 'one person on the internet' - perhaps you might like to do 3 things?  Firstly, use the search function - there are loads on this forum who understand that only LL3 spec oils should be used, even when on T&D.  Second, READ your own car handbook - at the rear of the folder, you'll find a thin book - '3.3, Technical Data, Golf GTI'.  Now please tell me where it states anything about viscosity grades?  It doesn't - it just states VW oil standards (none of which include semi-synthetic or 10w40).  Third - go to your stealer and look at ETKA - it too clearly states the VW oil specifications, and also lists the viscosities of said VW oil specs (again, no 10w40).  Then you will perhaps agree that everything I've stated about oils is actually 100% correct.

Finally - if you really CBA doing that - then log onto https://erWin-Volkswagen.com, create yourself a free account, and then input your VIN - and Volkswagen Germany will tell you exactly what spec oil is to be used.



Then fone up VW UK customer service, armed with all the evidence, and ask that they intervene and arrange that the correct oil is used - as per the manufacturer, in your car.