Visited a friend in France, and then.... saw where the SS visited in 1944.

[TagnuT]

Nice piece & pics. One of the places that I need to visit. 

[RedRobin]

.
I don't agree with most posted so far. Of course build a monument where people can visit to pay their respects but why leave a morbid ruin or a whole death camp. It's not going to stop future atrocities and indeed hasn't. The Russians adopted one the Nazi camps straight after WW2, for example. Furthermore, I think it promotes prejudice against all the fellow nationals of those who committed such horrors. And it can't be mentally healthy for those villagers to have the reminders under their noses every day.

What's the morbid attraction? Is it like rubber necking when there's a M-way accident?

[danishmkvgti]

.
I don't agree with most posted so far. Of course build a monument where people can visit to pay their respects but why leave a morbid ruin or a whole death camp. It's not going to stop future atrocities and indeed hasn't. The Russians adopted one the Nazi camps straight after WW2, for example. Furthermore, I think it promotes prejudice against all the fellow nationals of those who committed such horrors. And it can't be mentally healthy for those villagers to have the reminders under their noses every day.

What's the morbid attraction? Is it like rubber necking when there's a M-way accident?

I must say i agree with RR. History is not forgotten if it wasn't there or better remembered by a place like that.

[QD MBE]

.
I don't agree with most posted so far. Of course build a monument where people can visit to pay their respects but why leave a morbid ruin or a whole death camp. It's not going to stop future atrocities and indeed hasn't. The Russians adopted one the Nazi camps straight after WW2, for example. Furthermore, I think it promotes prejudice against all the fellow nationals of those who committed such horrors. And it can't be mentally healthy for those villagers to have the reminders under their noses every day.

What's the morbid attraction? Is it like rubber necking when there's a M-way accident?

The attraction is being human, and wanting to find out about our history, and what made the world we live in and people that we live with.

Memorials such as this and the Menim Gate for instance convey the horror of war far far more effectively than any plaque on a wall in a Church or a Dedication website.

The Germans are not alone in these type of actions, we should closer to home for that.

But the Germans had a bloody good go at being the best, remember the holocaust?  in fact the British Persecuted the Jews in the as far back as the 13th century, and the then King - Edward 1st of England forced the Jews to wear a yellow patch...............Sound familiar...........

[coullstar]

Go and see them and see if you feel the same, I didnt find it morbid at all.  We are still in the lifetime that there are people still alive that were affected directly by these acts but the future generations need to be reminded of what people can do to each other.  More so that it doesnt happen again  What of all these Battlefield tours or reinactments that go on, are they "rubber necking"?

I did not feel anti-german after visiting Aushwitz more a sense of mans own worst enemy is man.  Its an educational thing I think and these events were attrocities so a simple stone memorial just doesnt suffice IMO.      

[phil1975]

Morbid? I don't think so without such places being left for people to visit I don't think they would be remembered except by a few, or even believed by some people. Just look at the people who try to deny the holocaust.

[Hedge]

On a slightly off topic, but highly amusing note.

I had a friend in Munich - big, Australian and very brash, who also spoke fluent German and designed Air Traffic Control systems.
Anyway we were travelling along the road in a taxi and my mate asks the driver in English what the monument in front of us was, pointing at the Siegestor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegestor). The driver says Siegestor, my mate, knowing full well, says what does that mean and the driver says Winners Arch.
At this point I know where the conversation is heading and my mate didn't disappoint by pointing out that "you b'stards lost so how come winners arch?" 

Guess you had to be there really but I suppose the point is that these memorials are all over and none more poignant than some of the ones in Germany itself. I also agree that these things shouldn't be forgotten.

[RedRobin]

.
I don't agree with most posted so far. Of course build a monument where people can visit to pay their respects but why leave a morbid ruin or a whole death camp. It's not going to stop future atrocities and indeed hasn't. The Russians adopted one the Nazi camps straight after WW2, for example. Furthermore, I think it promotes prejudice against all the fellow nationals of those who committed such horrors. And it can't be mentally healthy for those villagers to have the reminders under their noses every day.

What's the morbid attraction? Is it like rubber necking when there's a M-way accident?

The attraction is being human, and wanting to find out about our history, and what made the world we live in and people that we live with.

Memorials such as this and the Menim Gate for instance convey the horror of war far far more effectively than any plaque on a wall in a Church or a Dedication website.

The Germans are not alone in these type of actions, we should closer to home for that.

But the Germans had a bloody good go at being the best, remember the holocaust?  in fact the British Persecuted the Jews in the as far back as the 13th century, and the then King - Edward 1st of England forced the Jews to wear a yellow patch...............Sound familiar...........

....I absolutely see your point about more effectively communicating the horrors of war and don't disagree with that logic. Unfortunately such monumental exhibits don't seem to work other than to fill horror into the minds of those who would be anti-war anyway. My concern is how such places may fuel and extend prejudices which in turn help the propoganda used by those in power to demonise a perceived enemy. But I guess that some people will have their prejudices anyway. I still feel uncomfortable with the presence of such places though and the negative energy they exude. Still, no-one is forcing me to visit them. I remember having nightmares from being taken to see the torture dungeon at Warwick Castle as a youngster.

On the humanitarian aspects within warfare there's currently an excellent BBC2 true-life dramatisation about the ship Laconia and German U-boat - First part last night and conclusion tonight.  

[RedRobin]

On a slightly off topic, but highly amusing note.

I had a friend in Munich - big, Australian and very brash, who also spoke fluent German and designed Air Traffic Control systems.
Anyway we were travelling along the road in a taxi and my mate asks the driver in English what the monument in front of us was, pointing at the Siegestor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegestor). The driver says Siegestor, my mate, knowing full well, says what does that mean and the driver says Winners Arch.
At this point I know where the conversation is heading and my mate didn't disappoint by pointing out that "you b'stards lost so how come winners arch?"  

Guess you had to be there really but I suppose the point is that these memorials are all over and none more poignant than some of the ones in Germany itself. I also agree that these things shouldn't be forgotten.

....Illustrating perhaps that it all depends on where and when you're born. Everyone believes that 'God', be it Christian, Allah, or whoever, is on their side.

These places makes excellent tourist attractions too.

A very good friend of mine whose father used to drive for Mr Hitler, took me on a tour when I stayed with her family. The atmosphere of where the Nuremberg rallies were held is mind blowing.

[tony_danza]

It wasn't a great deal of triggers that lead to the popularity of the Nazis and it is still something that is occurring, albeit in much smaller scale to this day. Deep recession & poverty, jealousy of immigrants, dented national pride. Ring any bells with the likes of Bosnia? Iraq? The corrupt elements of Africa? Genocide didn't stop with the Jews/Gypsies/non-Arian races at WWII (remember, the Holocaust wasn't just Jews being killed)... but seemingly even the Jews haven't learnt from what happened to them, arguably they're inflicting the same hate they received upon their neighbours in Palestine.

Look at the hate the BNP spread, yet their support is growing right here in the UK, where people in our lifetime died to protect us from the very same disgusting attitude.

It's only through learning we fully understand what we could not be there to witness ourselves. These memorials, museums, etc stand as a cold reminder and education of what happens when hate is allowed to rule and sacrifices have to be made to overcome.

[RedRobin]

^^^^
Yes, the Israeli treatment of Palestine really annoys me, considering that the Jews should know better than most what persecution is. Fecking religions! It all kicked off in that neck of the woods when the Brits set it up in the 1930's - Not Britain's finest hour.

[danishmkvgti]

RR, i was about to say that when the Brits gave palestine to the jews wasn't their finest hour. The thought was good but someone else lived there.
The Nazi regime can never be excused, but don't forget as mentioned above that religion is the biggest killer of them all, and noone tells the visitors of the churches how made has died in the name of the church or moske for that matter.
Religion kills more people than speed, cigarettes and alcohol together. Maybe about time to ban it also ??

[RedRobin]

RR, i was about to say that when the Brits gave palestine to the jews wasn't their finest hour. The thought was good but someone else lived there.
The Nazi regime can never be excused, but don't forget as mentioned above that religion is the biggest killer of them all, and noone tells the visitors of the churches how made has died in the name of the church or moske for that matter.
Religion kills more people than speed, cigarettes and alcohol together. Maybe about time to ban it also ??

....Agreed! 

I think that all of us here, plus zillions of other folks throughout the world, are anti war but it's the few in power, whether that be political or religious power, who act otherwise. And they use propaganda to persuade people too.

I have a question for those here who are in the forces (sorry if wrong term): Why did you join up? I'm not for a second suggesting that you support war mongering.

[Top Cat]

Great thread chaps. 

I think places like this should be kept this way forever. Once we stop respecting the dead the world will come to a swift end. Its one of the few things that separate us from animals. 

[BeezerDiesel]

Without wanting to get into the political debate going on (which in itself is fascinating), great thread Dave. Excellent photos too. Very poignant and moving.