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Author Topic: Forgotten Heroes....  (Read 11573 times)

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2011, 10:01:20 am »
.
In the light of what Carl has posted I'm inclined to modify my view but I still can't help having a niggle at the back of my mind which can't discount the existance of other ulterior motives to justify the military invasions.

But, either way, I have very strong feelings indeed that those returning to their UK homes and families, whether physically wounded or not, should be far better looked after than they currently are.


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Offline DaveB@Vagbremtechnic

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2011, 10:02:06 am »
But increased security levels at airports (which I approve of as I fly a fair amount) and the actual war are two separate things, admittedly with the same goal.

It shouldn't scare you seeing perimeter patrols every 20 mins... in fact it should make you feel safer.


(any news on those hoses?)



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« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 11:35:22 am by DaveB1970 »

Offline vRS Carl

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2011, 12:38:19 pm »
But increased security levels at airports (which I approve of as I fly a fair amount) and the actual war are two separate things, admittedly with the same goal.

The reason for those increased patrols are due to intelligence gathered from operations being conducted in places like Afghanistan. Without those operations the security would be at a reduced level giving the terrorists more opportunity to attack

So they are one and the same. :smiley:
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 12:40:05 pm by vRS Carl »

Offline cmdrfire

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2011, 01:08:44 pm »

To put it simply...

To stop things like 9/11 and 7/7 being a more common occurrence :smiley:

Don't give me that BS. 7/7/05 was largely home-grown with support from Pakistan. 11/09/01 was orchestrated in Germany and acted out by mostly Saudis and Yemenis, with some training from Afghanistan and Pakistan. All other attempts have been one-off crazies who have a (fortunately) poor understanding of physics. Yes, some potential events may have been averted by action overseas. But just because other events haven't occured doesn't mean the overseas action is preventing them - this is a logical fallacy*.

How many Mid-Eastern/Central-Asian based terror attacks did we face prior to the British involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq? How much more risk are we at now - not just the "boots on the ground", but people at home in the UK?

Hell, the Taliban and mujahadeen were our allies at one point, back when the Soviets were our big bad enemy. Remember Rambo 3? "Dedicated to the brave men and women of Afghanistan".

Yes, there have been attacks against the US originating from Central Asia for many years now. The root cause of this is the Israel/Palestine situation. As long as the US supports Israel blindly in whatever Israel wishes to do, the US will always be regarded as the "great satan", and will be a target for attack from various crazies.

Fortunately, much of the Middle East seems to have forgotten the British role in the creation of this mess, until Tony Blair decided to charge in with Dubya; it wasn't his life that was a risk, it was the soldiers in the theatre, and then ours.


*see the concept of a "bear stone". I have a stone in my pocket, and I have never been attacked by a bear. Ergo, the stone protects me from attack by bears. This is a logical fallacy.



Another point, to put all the current fuss into context. In the sixties and seventies, people lived under the threat of nuclear annhilation; humanity was in serious danger of wiping itself out. It seems to me that whatever current threats we may face (which may or may not be entirely of our own making) are considerably less than the nuclear threat and mutally assured destruction.


I could write more, but we've been over this argument a fair few times already. With regards to the men and women over there, who are being hurt, they deserve better. Better equipment, better pay, better after-service support if they need. The UK government - both the current government, and the previous one - have decided to support the renewal of the British nuclear deterrent, Trident, to the tune of several tens of billions of pounds. This is a weapon system that has never been used, is never likely to be used, and in this day and age, wholly unnecessary. The money spent on Trident could go to far better causes, things the government actually should do - supporting our forces, maintaining the NHS, and keeping higher education open to all. If we're going to lament the lack of support for our fighting men and women, the best thing one can do is write one's MP and ask them about Trident.

Offline DaveB@Vagbremtechnic

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2011, 02:24:39 pm »
Have you ever been in the armed services and or had to work in a security sensitive area where people drive into your place of work and try to blow themselves up with gas canisters in the boot....

You may say what relevance has that......


It has more relevance than some quote from a 20 year old work of fiction featuring Sylvester Stallone.... :stupid:

Perhaps if you had either voluntarily or involuntarily put yourself in harms way then would it be unreasonable to say you might feel a little bit different can you honestly say your views would not change if you had had a near death experience from somebody who you admit had training in the theatres we currently occupy.

Be honest

Offline vRS Carl

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2011, 02:42:23 pm »

To put it simply...

To stop things like 9/11 and 7/7 being a more common occurrence :smiley:

Don't give me that BS. 7/7/05 was largely home-grown with support from Pakistan. 11/09/01 was orchestrated in Germany and acted out by mostly Saudis and Yemenis, with some training from Afghanistan and Pakistan. All other attempts have been one-off crazies who have a (fortunately) poor understanding of physics. Yes, some potential events may have been averted by action overseas. But just because other events haven't occured doesn't mean the overseas action is preventing them - this is a logical fallacy*.

How many Mid-Eastern/Central-Asian based terror attacks did we face prior to the British involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq? How much more risk are we at now - not just the "boots on the ground", but people at home in the UK?

Hell, the Taliban and mujahadeen were our allies at one point, back when the Soviets were our big bad enemy. Remember Rambo 3? "Dedicated to the brave men and women of Afghanistan".

Yes, there have been attacks against the US originating from Central Asia for many years now. The root cause of this is the Israel/Palestine situation. As long as the US supports Israel blindly in whatever Israel wishes to do, the US will always be regarded as the "great satan", and will be a target for attack from various crazies.

Fortunately, much of the Middle East seems to have forgotten the British role in the creation of this mess, until Tony Blair decided to charge in with Dubya; it wasn't his life that was a risk, it was the soldiers in the theatre, and then ours.


*see the concept of a "bear stone". I have a stone in my pocket, and I have never been attacked by a bear. Ergo, the stone protects me from attack by bears. This is a logical fallacy.



Another point, to put all the current fuss into context. In the sixties and seventies, people lived under the threat of nuclear annhilation; humanity was in serious danger of wiping itself out. It seems to me that whatever current threats we may face (which may or may not be entirely of our own making) are considerably less than the nuclear threat and mutally assured destruction.


I could write more, but we've been over this argument a fair few times already. With regards to the men and women over there, who are being hurt, they deserve better. Better equipment, better pay, better after-service support if they need. The UK government - both the current government, and the previous one - have decided to support the renewal of the British nuclear deterrent, Trident, to the tune of several tens of billions of pounds. This is a weapon system that has never been used, is never likely to be used, and in this day and age, wholly unnecessary. The money spent on Trident could go to far better causes, things the government actually should do - supporting our forces, maintaining the NHS, and keeping higher education open to all. If we're going to lament the lack of support for our fighting men and women, the best thing one can do is write one's MP and ask them about Trident.

It's wise to have the correct facts before getting on one's high horse.

9/11 was planned & orchestrated from within Afghanistan & Pakistan. The cells used where then controlled for training & funding from within Europe. Im not saying where but it was NOT Germany.

7/7 Was as you put it "Home Grown" however they were coerced, influenced, funded & trained by radical extremists from, yes you guessed it, Afghanistan & Pakistan.

The other "one off crazies" are, in the majority, funded & trained from radical extremists from within places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi, Somalia, UAE etc etc. There are a few who decide off their own back to attempt something but the majority of the time it is in support of afore mentioned fcukwits. I'm no physics professor but i know you can easily learn how to do it yourself if you know where to look on the net!!

Taliban have never been our allies. The true Taliban are actually students of the muslim faith. A certain faction of the Mujahadeen, led by Osama Bin Laden, broke away from the main Mujahadeen/CIA alliance in 1989 when they became disillusioned to the way America & it's allies kept up their involvement in Afghanistan as they did not want the country being modelled on a westernised society after the disarray left behind after the Soviet occupation. They called themselves Al-Qaeda which is actually a two fingers to the Americans as this was the CIA code name given to the database of the MJH commanders that the US "thought" they had influence over, Al-Qaeda actually translates as "The Base" When they then took control of the country in Sept 1996 they proclaimed themselves to be Students of Allah and henceforth started to be called the Taliban. They then enforced a shockingly strict interpretation of Sharia Law onto the country. As the main people within Al-Qaeda/Taliban where also some of the main Tribe leaders, they had the manpower and influence to exert this Sharia Law. This then enabled a lot of Extremist groups to use the country for training and planning terrorist attacks in the west.

Overseas action is preventing terrorist attacks on most european countries (not just the UK) on a daily basis. We have faced attacks from Mid Eastern/Central asian countries for as long as i have been doing what i do (nearly 16 years) it is just become easier for them due to the lack of control of immigration into this country. It has also become more publicised due to people's access to the media and the media's clamour for a "story".

The reason the US has suffered more attacks is partly as you have pointed out the Israel/Palestine situation. But is also due to the fact that the US have a bigger presence around the world and the middle east than we do. Pretty much all the countries in the Middle East/Central Asia have their own currency. Yet the one universal currency that they all accept is American Dollars. Try and buy something from a Bazaar in Kabul with some of the Queen's and see what reaction you get!!

Yes the threat we face may not be as great as the "mutual nuclear annihilation" we once faced. That is though until Extremists build a dirty bomb. Something they are seeking to do more vehemently than any other type of attack they plan.

While i agree partly with what you say about Trident, you are very sadly mistaken if you think it is not needed. They very fact we have the deterrent is a major part of our role in the world.

No doubt you will disagree with everything i've said. But just remember there is a world of difference between the what the Media/Internet etc tell you and what the Government report to the main stream public. The truth is somewhere in the middle and that's where i work  :smiley:

To bring this back round to being back on topic.

The programme i thought was good and it highlighted where there are shortfalls. However it's, as Tim Collins said, not the MOD's responsibility to sort. It's the governments. The tosh they said about not informing the British Legion due to Data Protection is just that..Tosh!! All that would take to solve is to get a soldier on signing up to sign a waiver to say he agrees on his release that his details are passed to the RBL and no-one else. This then just gets signed annually and also in the last 6 months before leaving and it's problem solved.

I don't consider myself a hero (far from it) and neither do any of the guys i work with. Yes i've been in some sh*tty situations and seen a lot of good friends killed & injured. However i don't want special or preferential treatment. I'm no different to any other human being (Although i am a bit mental & twisted :laugh:). I'm just trained to do a job that others can't/don't want to do. All i do ask is that if i go away and return a Jigsaw Puzzle (i.e. in a box in pieces) that my family are taken care of. I ask that when i leave the forces and I'm unleashed on society that I'm given help to transit back to mainstream life. Sitting in a job interview saying i can slot a terrorist at 500m from the standing position and also post a Brimstone through a letter box isn't going to help me stack shelves in Tesco.

We all have wonderful notions of how things should be done to run this country. But if it actually came to one of us doing the job i think we would find it a damn sight harder than we imagine.


Offline Hedge

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2011, 02:46:26 pm »
 :notworthy: :congrats:

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2011, 02:59:59 pm »
.
It's a vicious circle isn't it. The likes of Israel and America justify to themselves the invasion of foreign lands and cultures (with 'god' on their side) and those invaded hit back with everything they can (with 'god' on their side), be it fighting dirty (IED's, killing who we term as innocent, etc) and go on the attack.

What bothers me is the ulterior motives and agendas of the bigger boys in these war games.

None of this detracts from the fact that those in military service need far more support on a human level. Which is what the TV prog was about.

@ DaveB - I think you missed cmdrfire's point and you took an emotional subjective view rather than an objective look at the bigger picture.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 03:02:34 pm by RedRobin »


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Offline cmdrfire

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2011, 03:04:01 pm »

It's wise to have the correct facts before getting on one's high horse.

9/11 was planned & orchestrated from within Afghanistan & Pakistan. The cells used where then controlled for training & funding from within Europe. Im not saying where but it was NOT Germany.

7/7 Was as you put it "Home Grown" however they were coerced, influenced, funded & trained by radical extremists from, yes you guessed it, Afghanistan & Pakistan.

The other "one off crazies" are, in the majority, funded & trained from radical extremists from within places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi, Somalia, UAE etc etc. There are a few who decide off their own back to attempt something but the majority of the time it is in support of afore mentioned fcukwits. I'm no physics professor but i know you can easily learn how to do it yourself if you know where to look on the net!!

Taliban have never been our allies. The true Taliban are actually students of the muslim faith. A certain faction of the Mujahadeen, led by Osama Bin Laden, broke away from the main Mujahadeen/CIA alliance in 1989 when they became disillusioned to the way America & it's allies kept up their involvement in Afghanistan as they did not want the country being modelled on a westernised society after the disarray left behind after the Soviet occupation. They called themselves Al-Qaeda which is actually a two fingers to the Americans as this was the CIA code name given to the database of the MJH commanders that the US "thought" they had influence over, Al-Qaeda actually translates as "The Base" When they then took control of the country in Sept 1996 they proclaimed themselves to be Students of Allah and henceforth started to be called the Taliban. They then enforced a shockingly strict interpretation of Sharia Law onto the country. As the main people within Al-Qaeda/Taliban where also some of the main Tribe leaders, they had the manpower and influence to exert this Sharia Law. This then enabled a lot of Extremist groups to use the country for training and planning terrorist attacks in the west.

Overseas action is preventing terrorist attacks on most european countries (not just the UK) on a daily basis. We have faced attacks from Mid Eastern/Central asian countries for as long as i have been doing what i do (nearly 16 years) it is just become easier for them due to the lack of control of immigration into this country. It has also become more publicised due to people's access to the media and the media's clamour for a "story".

The reason the US has suffered more attacks is partly as you have pointed out the Israel/Palestine situation. But is also due to the fact that the US have a bigger presence around the world and the middle east than we do. Pretty much all the countries in the Middle East/Central Asia have their own currency. Yet the one universal currency that they all accept is American Dollars. Try and buy something from a Bazaar in Kabul with some of the Queen's and see what reaction you get!!

Yes the threat we face may not be as great as the "mutual nuclear annihilation" we once faced. That is though until Extremists build a dirty bomb. Something they are seeking to do more vehemently than any other type of attack they plan.

While i agree partly with what you say about Trident, you are very sadly mistaken if you think it is not needed. They very fact we have the deterrent is a major part of our role in the world.

No doubt you will disagree with everything i've said. But just remember there is a world of difference between the what the Media/Internet etc tell you and what the Government report to the main stream public. The truth is somewhere in the middle and that's where i work  :smiley:

To bring this back round to being back on topic.

The programme i thought was good and it highlighted where there are shortfalls. However it's, as Tim Collins said, not the MOD's responsibility to sort. It's the governments. The tosh they said about not informing the British Legion due to Data Protection is just that..Tosh!! All that would take to solve is to get a soldier on signing up to sign a waiver to say he agrees on his release that his details are passed to the RBL and no-one else. This then just gets signed annually and also in the last 6 months before leaving and it's problem solved.

I don't consider myself a hero (far from it) and neither do any of the guys i work with. Yes i've been in some sh*tty situations and seen a lot of good friends killed & injured. However i don't want special or preferential treatment. I'm no different to any other human being (Although i am a bit mental & twisted :laugh:). I'm just trained to do a job that others can't/don't want to do. All i do ask is that if i go away and return a Jigsaw Puzzle (i.e. in a box in pieces) that my family are taken care of. I ask that when i leave the forces and I'm unleashed on society that I'm given help to transit back to mainstream life. Sitting in a job interview saying i can slot a terrorist at 500m from the standing position and also post a Brimstone through a letter box isn't going to help me stack shelves in Tesco.

We all have wonderful notions of how things should be done to run this country. But if it actually came to one of us doing the job i think we would find it a damn sight harder than we imagine.




Not going to give a full response here (no time) but I appreciate the well thought-out and articulated reply. True, I do disagree with large pieces of it (particularly on Trident), but I do understand and appreciate what you have said, and what you do  :happy2:


@Robin, I think that in every conflict, both sides invariably have "God on their side"...

Offline QD MBE

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2011, 03:09:31 pm »
Lets just say im privvy to more information than anyone on here  :wink:

 :wink:

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2011, 03:18:42 pm »

Lets just say im privvy to more information than anyone on here  :wink:


 :wink:

....C'mon guys, neither of you operate at that level - You're in service. And don't get me wrong, I greatly respect you for it and support you on a human level.


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Offline QD MBE

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2011, 03:25:23 pm »

Lets just say im privvy to more information than anyone on here  :wink:


 :wink:

....C'mon guys, neither of you operate at that level - You're in service. And don't get me wrong, I greatly respect you for it and support you on a human level.

I operate at no level Robin.  I don't know, i can't tell. 



Offline vRS Carl

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2011, 03:27:18 pm »

Lets just say im privvy to more information than anyone on here  :wink:


 :wink:

....C'mon guys, neither of you operate at that level - You're in service. And don't get me wrong, I greatly respect you for it and support you on a human level.

What level? Im just a tool in a box that gets used as appropriate  :P

Offline cmdrfire

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2011, 03:29:47 pm »

Lets just say im privvy to more information than anyone on here  :wink:


 :wink:

....C'mon guys, neither of you operate at that level - You're in service. And don't get me wrong, I greatly respect you for it and support you on a human level.

What level? Im just a tool in a box that gets used as appropriate  :P














 :P No offence!

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Forgotten Heroes....
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2011, 03:32:36 pm »
@ Carl & Dave:

I was interpreting you being "privvy to more information" as suggesting you knew much more about those hidden agendas at the level behind the public face of government. But [said in Faulty Towers Manuel voice]: "I know nothing".


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