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Author Topic: Autotech vs APR HPFP  (Read 52584 times)

Offline vRS Carl

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2012, 04:56:02 pm »
Fastest finger first Dave :P

And where does that finger go Mr Fleming?  :booty:

Nothing wrong with a bit of Abseiling in the Shower Lee  :grin:

Offline martziniuk

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2012, 05:36:24 pm »
I cannot work out why tuners need to run fuel pressure at 130 bar.  From what Ive read on other forums about flow rate in injectors, the optimum flow rate for TFSI injectors is 110 bar and anymore can actually create back pressure, slowing the fuel down putting extra strain on the HPFP.  I know that Shark maps run at around 110 bar and not the full 130 bar as other tuners and the engines still make the same power.  I see the benefit of running with upgraded HPFP as I have an Autotech fitted and it picks up cleaner and holds the power.  But I am wondering if the HPFP are being put under strain and its actually the injectors cannot flow the 130 bar easily like an S3 injector and its causing extra back pressure in the fuel rail.  I could be wrong but its worth a thought :popcornsoda:

Are you sure Shark run 110 bar on their stage 3 map (which is actually a stage 2+ by Revo and APR standards)?
Stage 1 and 2 run 110 bar normally.
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Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2012, 06:15:39 pm »
Nothing wrong with a bit of Abseiling in the Shower Lee  :grin:

I love to belay myself......when im climbing

Offline 56OctyVRS

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #93 on: March 01, 2012, 06:18:26 pm »
I know its around that figure and not up in the 130 bracket.  I was wondering if it wasnt the design of the internals that wholly contributed to the pump seals failing and if it was the fuel rail pressure being too high for the injectors to cope and causing increase back pressure in the rail etc.  My idea is based on pouring a liquid (fuel) into a funnel (injector).  If you pour too quickly, the funnel backs up as it cant flow the liquid quickly enough.  I wonder if this also has an effect on the pumps failing? It may or may not but I'm just throwing it out there as in idea :smiley:
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Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2012, 06:24:49 pm »
I cannot work out why tuners need to run fuel pressure at 130 bar.  From what Ive read on other forums about flow rate in injectors, the optimum flow rate for TFSI injectors is 110 bar and anymore can actually create back pressure, slowing the fuel down putting extra strain on the HPFP.  I know that Shark maps run at around 110 bar and not the full 130 bar as other tuners and the engines still make the same power.  I see the benefit of running with upgraded HPFP as I have an Autotech fitted and it picks up cleaner and holds the power.  But I am wondering if the HPFP are being put under strain and its actually the injectors cannot flow the 130 bar easily like an S3 injector and its causing extra back pressure in the fuel rail.  I could be wrong but its worth a thought :popcornsoda:

Are you sure Shark run 110 bar on their stage 3 map (which is actually a stage 2+ by Revo and APR standards)?
Stage 1 and 2 run 110 bar normally.

They did originally on mine and muckipups Octavias, but we had a whole world of issues at first.  Mine were solved, daves werent, hence his swap.  We both asked for the rail pressure to be raised.  Whats the point in a stage 2+ map with an UPRATED fuel pump if their map is only going to request a rail pressure which can be maintained on the stock pump?  Isnt that a waste of money?

Offline donovan2123

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2012, 06:25:59 pm »
I know its around that figure and not up in the 130 bracket.  I was wondering if it wasnt the design of the internals that wholly contributed to the pump seals failing and if it was the fuel rail pressure being too high for the injectors to cope and causing increase back pressure in the rail etc.  My idea is based on pouring a liquid (fuel) into a funnel (injector).  If you pour too quickly, the funnel backs up as it cant flow the liquid quickly enough.  I wonder if this also has an effect on the pumps failing? It may or may not but I'm just throwing it out there as in idea :smiley:

Are you sure? Im sure they run at 120.9bar or 129.9bar on the stage 3?

Another thought could it be the way the fuel is requested and hammered i have seen a few logs where it constantly requests say 130bar though out rev range. Now i know request is not actual but when request is met it usually stays at 130bar.

On standard car i am sure the 110bar is much more gradual with less of a bang effect.

Or i could be talking complete rubbish. Maby some of the guys who have had failures should post up there logs and people who are still running A T with no issues post up there logs.

Would be interesting to see if there is a pattern

Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #96 on: March 01, 2012, 06:44:49 pm »
Just checked my past logs

Shark Stage 1 110.99 Bar requested rail pressure
Shark Stage 3 (2+) 120.99 Bar requested rail pressure (think these were the logs prior to them increasing the rail pressure on mine though)

Bluefin Stage 2+ 129.89 Bar requested rail pressure

Offline 56OctyVRS

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #97 on: March 01, 2012, 07:48:29 pm »
It would be handy to know if there is a relation to the way the fuel pressure is introduced, how much pressure and if this directly relates to pump failure.
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Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #98 on: March 01, 2012, 07:58:45 pm »
Considering the many hundreds  (easily around that number if not more when you consider GIAC/APR/REVO on a worldwide basis) of cars running Stage 2+ with 130Bar requested i think its fair to say the rail pressure isnt the issue.

After all the pumps were designed to run at this pressure all the time.  Id like to think they would have been tested to run at a higher pressure without failing.  Maybe Keith @ APR could elaborate on what the pressure test range is for the APR pumps.  Id be pretty confident its higher than 130Bar though.

Interesting read here

Hi guys, this is a copy of a post I done for another Forum as this has been asked before, and a few people have been asking this to us by Email etc recently. The botton line is, if you already have an Autotech or KMD pump supplied by us dont worry.
We stopped supplying pump internals some time ago now so some text below is a little out of date but will give you the 'history' so to speak.


JKM appreciate that some people would like to know more about why we have made the switch from KMD & Autotech TFSI fuel pump internals over to the complete APR pre built and tested unit.

Where we have been using KMD/Autotech internals I will detail what process we have been going through for each fuel pump prior to sending it out to a customer, so you will get a feel for the process that needs to be run through by JKM to ensure that the pumps are of sufficiently high quality to sell to a customer.

After receiving the fuel pump internals from the manufacture (say for example KMD) we first check the machined parts for known manufacturing problems by measuring and a general visual inspection – any problems here and the pump internals are rejected.
We then hand assemble the parts together and with a light lubrication between the piston and bore, the clearance and general feel is assessed. The internals are then hand assembled into a test fuel pump body - any problems here and the pump internals are rejected.

Assuming that all is good on the above, we can then begin an up rated fuel pump internal build into a brand new OEM pump.
Cleanliness is paramount here as any debris etc will ruin the piston shaft. This is something that we only do in an extremely clean environment to ensure the utmost quality.

Once the fuel pump is built, we then move onto the next main step – Testing.
To ensure that each TFSI fuel pump that we supply is of the highest quality we have been testing each pump built by JKM, on our own TFSI car.
Therefore every time we build a new pump Kates nice new shiny MK5 GTI is pulled apart and the test pump is installed for performance testing under load. Following the install we analyse each fuel pump in detail.
We will look at the fuel pumps Quantity Valve differential angle, Total Compression volume, Fuel pressure and more – again comparing the results against known good units.
With our experience of these pumps it is possible to analyse the results and detect possible problems with internal clearances as a result of machining tolerances, but this is a very complex area. If we suspect problems we will remove the fuel pump, disassemble and inspect it again – any problems found here and the pump internals are rejected.

Following all of the above, assuming that the built TFSI fuel pump is functioning correctly, we will remove the fuel pump from our test car, seal it into a bag and box it and send out to the customer.

The main reason we have chosen to swap from KMD/Autotech is that the above is very costly to us (time wise) to get a good pump together. We have sometimes had to build 3 pumps to get 1 good unit.
We appreciate quality engineering, which APR provide with their fuel pump,
Our equivalent of the APR test rig, is our own MK5 Golf GTI engine and our diagnostics knowledge.



APR does have a superior hardware design, changing much more than just the piston and bore. The complete internals are re-engineered, right down to the balanced seal rings and main spring assembly. This design puts less stress on the rear balanced seal than the other pump solutions – the APR pump design is along the same route as the OEM pump only obviously containing larger internals for increased fuel volume.
APR route out bad pumps themselves during testing at their own facility, and the pumps have even been used by VW Motorsport on the VW Scirocco GT24 which won the ADAC 24h Race without any fault.
For those interested more information on this can be found here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3855643

JKM will only bring to market the quality items. If we find that the quality of an item is not acceptable we will first try and work with the supplier for a solution but ultimately if we would not be happy to use the product on our own car we will not sell it to a customer for use on their car.
For JKM the up rated internals route (only) is too inconsistent from the manufacturers.
APR provide a quality fuel pump out of the box, and the customer is in the knowledge that there will be no issues.

The APR pump can be bought in 2 ways.

1) An outright buy of an APR pump, where by you can remove your stock TFSI pump and retain it somewhere safe and simply install the APR pump. This route costs £624+Vat excluding postage back to you.

2) The second route is a core exchange but this can take up to 6 weeks to complete this process, where by if you send us your TFSI pump we will send it to APR for YOUR pump to be modified at the APR headquarters , this route costs £509+Vat excluding postage back to you and you are responsible for postage of your pump to JKM intially. However it does take a long time to complete this process due to the international shipping involved.

More information is at the following link: http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsipumps.htm

For those customers already with a JKM built KMD or Autotech pump, you do not need to worry as we have done the above testing process on your pump to ensure you have a good unit.
I hope this helps clear up the questions in this area and hopefully you will appreciate why we have made the switch to the APR unit.
For those who wondered, our own car does use an APR fuel pump but the K04 conversion car that has been on long term testing (27,000+ miles) has been, and is still using a KMD pump without fault due to the above testing process that we have performed.

Keith

JKM initially started supplying high volume/pressure 2.0 TFSI fuel pumps to customers in 2007. We have tried and tested many of the solutions available to the market. JKM have tested items that replace the fuel pump internals only (larger and stepped piston desing) and the APR design (larger but constant diameter piston as per the OEM Hitachi design).
Following long term reliability testing feedback JKM are now only supplying APR TFSI fuel pumps for 2.0 TFSI applications as we believe that APR has the most superior mechanical design.

The APR fuel pump design replaces more than just the piston and bore. The piston diameter is increased along with the complete re-engineering of the pump internals to suit the high volume design. This design approach will drastically reduce the possibility of fuel to oil mixture during the service life of the fuel pump.
Pump overview - Constant Diameter piston - Stepped Piston
Newly designed components are used throughout, such as a larger spring energized seal for a leak tight operation alongside a Diamond like Piston coating increasing surface hardness for a highly reliable operation.
In order to maintain the Highest Quality Standards all APR Fuel pumps are built at the APR facility in Alabama USA, where they are put through an aggressive post build testing process - ensuring that when you get an APR fuel pump, its reliability is without any question.

Therefore with Quality and Reliability in mind, JKM are now only supplying the APR High Pressure fuel pumps for 2.0 TFSI cars.

Fitting instructions for APR Fuel pumps can be found here. JKM do offer an installation service at £55.00+Vat - (£66.00 Including Vat)
Quote



APR testing regime/facilities  http://www.goapr.com/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html



This is what  your paying your extra money for.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 08:07:54 pm by Janner_Sy »

Offline donovan2123

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #99 on: March 01, 2012, 08:08:45 pm »
So there only reason is because it makes easier life to fit apr as they don't have to check pump and internals over and less worry of conditions.

They say they still have a car with 20k+ kit with kmd which is fine.

As for pressure testing I bet you could run A T at 140bar with no issues for a few 1k.....

Offline donovan2123

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #100 on: March 01, 2012, 08:10:23 pm »
" For those customers already with a JKM built KMD or Autotech pump, you do not need to worry as we have done the above testing process on your pump to ensure you have a good unit. 
I hope this helps clear up the questions in this area and hopefully you will appreciate why we have made the switch to the APR unit.
For those who wondered, our own car does use an APR fuel pump but the K04 conversion car that has been on long term testing (27,000+ miles) has been, and is still using a KMD pump without fault due to the above testing process that we have performed."


Offline Janner_Sy

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #101 on: March 01, 2012, 08:13:15 pm »
They say they still have a car with 20k+ kit with kmd which is fine.


That was a post from ages ago.  Im pretty certain Si's car had some fueling related issues recently requiring a fair bit of work.  Might be wrong though. Ian or Carl should be able to ellaborate on that though

Quote
Therefore with Quality and Reliability in mind, JKM are now only supplying the APR High Pressure fuel pumps for 2.0 TFSI cars.

Offline vRS_Pagey

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #102 on: March 01, 2012, 08:16:07 pm »
" For those customers already with a JKM built KMD or Autotech pump, you do not need to worry as we have done the above testing process on your pump to ensure you have a good unit.
I hope this helps clear up the questions in this area and hopefully you will appreciate why we have made the switch to the APR unit.
For those who wondered, our own car does use an APR fuel pump but the K04 conversion car that has been on long term testing (27,000+ miles) has been, and is still using a KMD pump without fault due to the above testing process that we have performed."



The plot thickens.....  :popcornsoda:

His: MK2 Black Magic Skoda Octavia vRS Estate
Hers: MK5 Graphite Blue Pearl VW Golf GT140 -

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,32783.0.html

Offline donovan2123

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #103 on: March 01, 2012, 08:18:53 pm »
Personally I reckon its down to the way the pressure is delivered. If you was to run A T on a standard map requesting the normal 110bar then how would it hold up with regards to cam follower wear and other issues.


Again I could be talking complete s**t
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 08:22:24 pm by donovan2123 »

Offline Bernhard30

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Re: Autotech vs APR HPFP
« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2012, 10:41:26 pm »
I think my confusion is now clearing.

Although i'm running Autotech at the minute this topic has really got me thinking i need to get saving for the APR 'all in one' unit.
Probably overkill and at the minute probably not necessary - but trying to be objective and whilst really not wanting to lay out a huge amount of cash on a second HPFP option I really think it's a better long term option, regular cam followers accepted, (which is what I was adhering to anyway).

Was also just looking through NeilM's build thread, page 16 of that thread outlines his cam follower explosion which did a fair amount of damage.
He then went from Autotech internals to an APR pump, obviously his issue was the follower bursting, but I thought it was telling swap to read about.