Caution when getting a trial

[johnhol78]

Down at paramount performance having a dyno done and now a remap.

When they dyno'd first it came up as 214bhp. Which I was shocked by. Though they then tested to see if they could read the ecu map though couldn't. The revo trial locks the ecu. The map specialist said they sometimes do this.

Then he re tested it and came up at 180bhp as it went to valet mode as they tried to read the map.

Now they are taking the revo off and then remapping.

So ne careful when thinking about the trial as most tuners won't touch it due to the lock on the ecu. Very sneaky as this was never mentioned to me prior to the trial.

[Janner_Sy]

this has happened to lots of guys

[johnhol78]

this has happened to lots of guys

They should tell you this before the trial. 

[Hedge]

Interesting that your tuner says they lock the ecu. If that was the case how come Skoda managed to overwrite my Revo map on my Octavia?

What Revo do is move files around so they are no longer where they were and that confuses people but lock it, I don't think so.  

You should have had your original map put back on after the Revo trial.

[johnhol78]

Interesting that your tuner says they lock the ecu. If that was the case how come Skoda managed to overwrite my Revo map on my Octavia?

What Revo do is move files around so they are no longer where they were and that confuses people but lock it, I don't think so.  

You should have had your original map put back on after the Revo trial.

Not sure on the specifics, though switching to valet mode is strange. All I know is the error message said it could not read the map. Saw it myself.

[Hedge]

What your new tuner should be doing is flash you back to stock and then apply their map.

Simplessss 

[PDT]

Revo trial doesnt lock the ECU or anything at all of this nature, however it does leave a Revo version of stock on the ECU.

Tuners will struggle to read off the data if the trial data is still installed, however all that needs doing is to flash a stock factory file to the ecu, easy for any competent tuner to do, the factory stock file is readily available free of charge.

BUT, and this is a big one, some tools are designed to only flash small data areas i.e a file in the Ecu is 1024k but the tool only reads/writes 256k of data so misses off an awfull lot so you dont end up with a fully completed write.

The solution is to always do either:

1.take the car back at the end of the trial and ask for the factory file to be re-installed
2. Make sure the tuner is aware of the trial software so they know that they need to flash to stock.

However, some tuners dont make your new tuned software from your original software, they will look online for a cheap/free tuned file that is a close match to your original software and try and flash just the data area over the top of the existing trial software, this results in a dead ECU or an ECU that needs recovering via BDM (background debug mode) on the bench.

If the tuner does make your new tuned map from the trial, they will quickly realise its not stock and wont try to flash anything over the trial, this is something an experienced professional will be able to see and will carry out the rest of the procedure accordingly.

Luckily for the OP he did use an experience professional and the job was completed succesfully

[johnhol78]

All done thank god though took ages to get the Revo map off whatever that means.

The car made 214bhp stock...Revo stock that is..

Then the second run ran 182 after trying to read the map......

After the remap it ran 3 times as first was not configured and showed 180bhp, then 240, then 230....

It kept trying dropping back so it wasn't reading properly...

By this time it was 6.30 at it closes at 5 so they said it was likely to be about 235bhp.....though the curve was constant to 7k.....didn't drop much at all...

Will post up the dyno later.

Also the fact it's due a service might help - plugs, air filter, oil service as well.....

Obviously not as high numbers as Revo though feels much smoother all the way through the revs......

[revo carl]

Hi Guys;

Following John's email i thought I'd paste my response up for you all to see 

Hi John;

 

We don’t lock any other tuners out, any tuner worth there salt can flash a full factory file and this is all the need to do to remove trial software. The reason we stop people reading out our software is to stop people stealing our IP I’m sure you can understand this.

 

All the tuners out there that are on a par with our technologies and knowledge can flash straight over our trial software with no problems at all, any tuner that isn’t willing to invest money into the technology and knowledge to understand these processes should not be touching an emissions control unit in my opinion.

 

For more FAQ’s on our trial software please follow the link below:

 

http://www.revotechnik.com/index.php?mod=free_trial_faq

 

I hope this helps!

[E30Dom]

I take it Paramount performance aren't Revo dealers then? I would want a Revo main Agent check what they'd done, and at least have it rolling roaded elsewhere to check figures...

Dom

[johnhol78]

Hi Guys;

Following John's email i thought I'd paste my response up for you all to see 

Hi John;

 

We don’t lock any other tuners out, any tuner worth there salt can flash a full factory file and this is all the need to do to remove trial software. The reason we stop people reading out our software is to stop people stealing our IP I’m sure you can understand this.

 

All the tuners out there that are on a par with our technologies and knowledge can flash straight over our trial software with no problems at all, any tuner that isn’t willing to invest money into the technology and knowledge to understand these processes should not be touching an emissions control unit in my opinion.

 

For more FAQ’s on our trial software please follow the link below:

 

http://www.revotechnik.com/index.php?mod=free_trial_faq

 

I hope this helps!

was expecting this after the email and after speaking with Paramount. Seems because the tuner was not impressed with you're practises they are deemed to be not worth their salt or not keeping up with technologies and shouldn't be allowed near an ECU. The factr that the company have vast mapping and tuning experience with Lambos, ferraris and Astons would make me think they are experienced enough. With recommendations from one of your agents, it seems strange you suggest they aren't 'up to par'.

Not going to get in an arguement especially on here where most mappings are done by Revo. Most people are happy with there's but as someone above has said this has happened before. I understand not wanting people to read your maps and copy them but why put the car in Valet mode.....It was a Revo stock map I was running so not exactly showing off your performance map.

Paramount did in fact flash over the top and load their map on. I asked them and they said this is what they do, though where shocked Revo software drops a car into valet mode if the ecu is tried to be read....no need for this.

It was merely a caution to others. I think shopping around is vital this way people have a variety to chose from instead of following the majority and paying over the top prices. You get what you pay for I understand that, but a custom map that can produce the same output, numbers and I feel a better drive being available for a lot less than a off the shelf map seems better value to me by far.

Though this is all personal opinion and I'm sure people will comment that Revo is great, Revo is special etc etc though if you're willing to pay over the odds then they will say that.

People say the same about Apple products....I used to though got a MBP as a present and LOVE it....though I admit they are massively overpriced for what they are and when compared to the rest of the market.

[revo carl]

we were the first people to flash an ECU via the diagnostics port for aftermarket purposes, we spend copious amounts of money on research and development on software for these engines and ECU's. I'm afraid it's simply impossible to do that kind of work in a couple of hours on the dyno.

So if you feel a thoroughly tested and developed product equates to paying over the odds then that's up to you but i'll keep paying over the odds for well developed products that are a known quantity thanks... i'm sure many will agree, that's why we're the biggest VAG&Porsche tuner in the world!

[PDT]

As a tuner that supplies both our brand own in-house developed software and Revo software I can see this argument from both sides.

Before being a REVO dealer we used to hate getting cars in that were once flashed with trial software, not because it was difficult to resolve but it meant we had to obtain a full factory file and flash that to the ECU before we could carry out any further work, this meant more time spent on the car for no extra income.

But with good quality tools that do complete read/write and not just data area function this isnt any real trouble as long as you have the factory stock files at your disposal (any tuner worth using will have most factory files or if not, will have access to a scource of stock files).

I cant comment on why the car would have gone into a valet mode as I have never had this happen. However all the problems that the tuners had on the day could have been resolved by simply flashing a full stock file to the ecu before continuing to try and work with and read off the Revo software.

Most tuners will install a no-read marker on their software, I certainly do alter seed key parameters on my own software to stop software theft, this is common practice.

The whole issue that causes problems is down to 2 things, firstly customers that have the REVO trial and not reading the description properly and secondly, tuners that dont have the knowledge/equipment to resolve the issue and I think in most cases its a bit of both

Heres a bit if text taken from the trial software page from the Revo site:

Trial software cannot wipe itself off the ECU automatically. The trial software does remain on the ECU, but is essentially hidden in with the stock code. On expiration of the trial the car runs at stock power levels on tables that are not where you'd expect them to be. The reason behind this is to prevent the technology of the trial software being copied and stolen as we obviously can’t solder an encryption socket onto the ECU.

Can trial be removed from a car/ECU once it’s been loaded?
Yes, all Revo dealers have a library of stock files for every trial and performance code that Revo supply. These stock files are complete factory binary files flash-able using the Revo programmer. There is no cost to a dealer for using these files.
 

Does Revo lock out other tuners from writing to the ECU?
No, the only issue other 'tuners' will have with access to the ECU is when they use limited data-area tools that rely on reading a certain area of the ECU memory then modifying that and putting it back in. Revo write complete ECU files and move things around which can make it difficult for other tuners to work from if they don’t know what they’re looking for.
With tuning tools that have access to the entire operating file this causes no problem at all as they can flash a full ECU file be it stock or tuned to the ECU.  We have never prevented the ECU from being overwritten, which is why there aren’t any problems with main dealers flashing factory stock update files on cars that have had any Revo software on them!

All Revo dealers (most ‘tuners’ should) have libraries of factory stock files and the ability to write a complete file to the ECU. If any customer is even slightly worried or wants to use another 'tuner' that doesn't have the ability to write a complete file to the ECU then your local Revo dealer can flash a complete factory stock file to your ECU.

[PDT]

And if someone at Revo reads this, maybe worth contacting dealers with a reminder to explain trial software more accurately to customers, I go to great lengths to make customers understand why they need to come back to us for a stock reflash after expiry of the trial, but in this case the customer mentioned that the ins and outs of trial software were not explained in detail.

We have rarely had a problem with trial software, most customers come back before the trial ends to have the full version installed 

As for the cost of the software that Revo supply vs an independant unbranded product, unless you have thoroughly tested both versions then they cant be compared, the trial software is nothing like the final product, more of a taster of what to expect. When Revo is fully installed and tuned via dyno/on road testing and datalogging its a completely different experience, and as close to a custom map as you are likely to get as the correct boost/fuel/ignition advance is determined by the tuner on the day based on real live data, it certainly isnt an 'off the shelf' product. 

[johnhol78]

we were the first people to flash an ECU via the diagnostics port for aftermarket purposes, we spend copious amounts of money on research and development on software for these engines and ECU's. I'm afraid it's simply impossible to do that kind of work in a couple of hours on the dyno.

So if you feel a thoroughly tested and developed product equates to paying over the odds then that's up to you but i'll keep paying over the odds for well developed products that are a known quantity thanks... i'm sure many will agree, that's why we're the biggest VAG&Porsche tuner in the world!

Well that's me told 

Sorry Carl, but the way a project works when developing anything is the price is initially high to cover the costs of the development and effort that goes into the SDLC. Then when the finished product sells well and the costs are covered then profit goes up. The problem I see with Revo is the profit is continuing to go up and up...As demand increases then price 'could' come down as the same effort is not required to keep a product developing as maintenance is not as expensive as build. The majority of costs are in the beginning of any SDLC. So I appreciate Revo has done a lot of development, research etc. Though the cost of you product no longer needs to be as high as it is.

Obviously a business is alive to make profit, any idiot can understand that but it's about the level of profit against providing a competitive/fair price. Your price in the market is not very competitive, in fact it's the most expensive (i think).

People continue to buy your products so you keep them high. I've suggested other alternatives and it appears these have been talked down and scrutinised.

Having a wide range of products available makes the market competitive and better value for the end user.

On the locking/valet mode.....I understand you may not lock the ECU, and it's a security thing for copyright purposes though you still haven't even mentioned this in your blurb.

It appears you have become very defensive when all I wanted was for people to now ALL the facts when having the trial software and as PDT said - you're agents do not mention this...Some do though few I spoke to never mentioned a thing about needing to reflash the Factory software if anything else is done