Make a donation

Author Topic: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question  (Read 4028 times)

Offline rich83

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 165
  • -Receive: 802
  • Posts: 13444
    • MK5 Golf GTI
  • My Ride: https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=bpm2d8l7gpeis4s2956ga4bqlf&/topic,19740.0.html
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2011, 06:25:31 pm »
Neo... so whats on the horizon for batteries? Is it possible to make a reasonably sized battery that does cost/weight a ton, that will enable a car to do 400-500 miles?

Offline cmdrfire

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 14
  • Posts: 1359
    • Commander Fire - my blog
    • Email
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2011, 06:47:42 pm »
Neo... so whats on the horizon for batteries? Is it possible to make a reasonably sized battery that does cost/weight a ton, that will enable a car to do 400-500 miles?

It's a complex question, and it largely depends what you mean by reasonably sized - but, to put it very bluntly, in the next ten years, with the physics we know, probably not.

Let me clarify - battery technology (referring to the electrochemical and the electromechanical aspects) will improve by some percentage each year, but it is not a large percentage. What this means is, in 5-10 years:

1. You can pay the same amount for a battery pack of the same mass and get double the range of the EVs on sale today.
2. You can pay half the amount for a battery pack of hall the mass and get the same range of the EVs on sale today.

There will be other savings associated with economies of scale and organisation of infrastructure and so on, so in real terms the battery pack will end up costing less, no matter what. In any case, amongst most of the car companies pursuing an EV option, option 2. is preferred as it better suits the use case for an EV and helps drive down cost, and so on. It also improves the dynamics and efficiency of a vehicle (less heavy battery pack results in less mass to lug around, hence an improvement in efficiency).

The problem with a metal-based battery is that, as I mentioned, its energy density compared to gasoline is poor, and there's simply no way around that (hell, wood has a greater potential energy than metal, but the conversion effiency - how efficiently you can convert the chemical energy stored within to kinetic energy - is so poor rendering such an exercise pointless). So an EV for very-long ranges just doesn't make sense, especially as you take energy out of the battery pack, you still have the same mass to lug around, resulting in an overall decrease in vehicle efficiency.

For longer-range vehicles at the moment gasoline-electric is the way to go, be it parallel hybrid (a Prius - a normal car with a small gasoline engine with electric "assist") or a series hybrid* (petrol engine used as a generator to recharge the battery pack - vehicle is electric drive only - what my company works on).

It is interesting to note, that our favourite car company (Volkswagen), recently announced what I believe is probably the most sensible policy of any auto company - that they will not be pursuing EVs, but instead will offer a plug-in hybrid of one kind or another (that is, a parallel or series hybrid which can have the battery pack recharged from the mains for limited electric-only drive) for every single model in its line up.

*Also worth noting that the term "series hybrid" technically encompasses hydrogen fuel cell cars. Problem is between the likes of Clarkson and the PR firms of all of these auto companies it's a bit of a nonsense trying to work out what is what, with terms like "fuel cell vehicle - FCV" and "Range extended EV - REEV" and toyota's abysmal "Full hybrid" (?!) all essentially meaningless.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 06:49:29 pm by cmdrfire »

Offline rich83

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 165
  • -Receive: 802
  • Posts: 13444
    • MK5 Golf GTI
  • My Ride: https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=bpm2d8l7gpeis4s2956ga4bqlf&/topic,19740.0.html
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2011, 06:51:57 pm »
I suppose by reasonable i just meant... small enough to fit in a car without impeding its size and space inside the cabin.

Interesting read neo, thanks  :happy2:

Offline Tfsi_Mike

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 241
  • -Receive: 309
  • Posts: 10222
  • Go Large or Go Home
    • Tfsi Mikes Money Pit AKS / TTE / RTech St2+ Cupra
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,32721.msg402587.html#msg402587
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2011, 10:17:32 pm »
Think I saw you on your way to work the other day Neo.......






 :P

Germany is full of those heaps of sh*t  :fighting: 

Offline Top Cat

  • Top cat
  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 171
  • -Receive: 335
  • Posts: 8196
  • Almost Jacamo
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2011, 04:06:08 pm »
Is it to much to ask for a battery that lasts more than a day in my crap Blackberry without needing charging.  :sad1:

Offline rich83

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 165
  • -Receive: 802
  • Posts: 13444
    • MK5 Golf GTI
  • My Ride: https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=bpm2d8l7gpeis4s2956ga4bqlf&/topic,19740.0.html
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2011, 04:08:09 pm »
Is it to much to ask for a battery that lasts more than a day in my crap Blackberry without needing charging.  :sad1:

... or iPhone for that matter.  :surprised:

Offline vRS Carl

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 282
  • -Receive: 240
  • Posts: 3088
  • I'm the F.A.G (Forum Apple Guru)
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2011, 04:20:10 pm »
Your all looking at this from the wrong angle, as are all the car manufacturers.

Robin Williams had the answer back in 1997....








:pomppomp: :pomppomp: FLUBBER :pomppomp: :pomppomp:

Offline Thecrawf

  • Always Involved
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 71
    • Email
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2011, 04:23:45 pm »
Tbh I remember there was a programme on H cars a couple of years back using a solid block of inert hydrogen and all you fill the tank up with is water, water simply drips on to the fuel cell releasing hydrogen gas (don't ask what happens next )fuel cell costs half the cost for new batteries too and should last 10-20 years

But just water in the tank maybe Knight industries were ahead of there time

The current hydrogen furling system is another way of the govenment to tax us on fuel

The cracking proccess of splitting hydrogen from h2o uses alot of power too so there is a false economy for the power usage cycle

Wait til helium 3 fusion power comes in lol

Anyone found any truthful posts on wiki lol
Really do miss the mk5 Perelli rare breed of car
Audi S3 black edition 1 week old went wrong sent back to Audi
RS3 order cancelled bought C63 AMG PPP now sold after a year of expensive trips to kwik fit
New car BMW M135i loaded to the hilt

Offline heavyd

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 29
  • -Receive: 29
  • Posts: 1372
    • Email
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2011, 09:50:33 pm »
We've been told at work that the battery life of the leaf is expected to rise considerably in the next few years, giving more power, longer range etc, as the leafs are going to be built in this country in the next year or so.
I think its mercedes that have thrown a heap of cash into the battery plant up here thats being built, as I think there going to be powering Smart cars with them soon aswell

Offline Nodz

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 73
  • -Receive: 103
  • Posts: 1977
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,29264.0.html
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2011, 10:51:26 am »
Is it to much to ask for a battery that lasts more than a day in my crap Blackberry without needing charging.  :sad1:

... or iPhone for that matter.  :surprised:

I second that, bloody annoying as I don't even get a full day sometimes  :fighting:

Offline vRS Carl

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 282
  • -Receive: 240
  • Posts: 3088
  • I'm the F.A.G (Forum Apple Guru)
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2011, 02:01:16 pm »
I can get a couple of days out of my iPhone 4 and that's with 20-30 calls a day, a fair amount of texts and emails and the odd browse on the interweb. I'm also on a beta software. I charge it up everyday but the lowest i've been at after a day is 57% unless i use the internet a lot.

Offline cmdrfire

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 14
  • Posts: 1359
    • Commander Fire - my blog
    • Email
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2011, 09:39:03 pm »
Is it to much to ask for a battery that lasts more than a day in my crap Blackberry without needing charging.  :sad1:

... or iPhone for that matter.  :surprised:

How much are you willing to pay? The cobalt-anode technologies that are used in mobile phones and laptops have come a long long way forward but the stuff you get in phones/laptops is about six or seven years out of date by my assessment. The problem is the capex for a battery plant for consumer electronics runs into the hundreds of millions (we're talking millions of cells here) and a new electrochemistry or electromechanical structure doesn't necessarily lend itself to be manufactured in existing plant. When you couple that with loads of existing infrastructure to produce this stuff, there's not much incentive to make a better battery for consumer electronics. The 900-odd cycle lifespan of these older technologies is also good for the manufacturers because it means you buy a new phone or laptop every eighteen months to three years. Most of the gains in battery life in consumer electronics have been down to better electronic design and power management.

If I could put the stuff I'm working with right now in my phone it'd have charge for ages  :laugh:

Offline rich83

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 165
  • -Receive: 802
  • Posts: 13444
    • MK5 Golf GTI
  • My Ride: https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=bpm2d8l7gpeis4s2956ga4bqlf&/topic,19740.0.html
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2011, 03:24:05 pm »
My MBP battery is on 678 cycles and it knackered!  :signLOL:

Offline mattyw

  • Always Involved
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 7
  • -Receive: 3
  • Posts: 75
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2011, 08:47:12 pm »
Did anyone see Clarksons page in the sun today,Nissan are furious about top gears test of the EV,Nissan say that they set out with only a partially charged battery which sounds like the sort of thing top gear would do and then clarkson goes on to criticise the nissan car range

Offline Snoopy

  • Won't Shut up.
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 31
  • -Receive: 15
  • Posts: 671
Re: Top Gear - EV or not EV that is the question
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2011, 08:58:20 pm »
Did anyone see Clarksons page in the sun today,Nissan are furious about top gears test of the EV,Nissan say that they set out with only a partially charged battery which sounds like the sort of thing top gear would do and then clarkson goes on to criticise the nissan car range
Did you read this also
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/aug/05/top-gear-bbc
Ex mk5 GTI owner, moved to a mk6 in 2010.