Heads up - Fighting on the Frontline

[Hedge]

Episode 1 - Following the Apache attack helicopter crews. 

As an aside if you like this you need to read Apache by Ed Macy. Quite possibly one of the best books I have ever read.

[vRS Carl]

Episode 1 - Following the Apache attack helicopter crews. 

As an aside if you like this you need to read Apache by Ed Macy. Quite possibly one of the best books I have ever read.

 

[Beddie]

As an aside if you like this you need to read Apache by Ed Macy. Quite possibly one of the best books I have ever read.

Mrs Beddie thinks i'm mad that i've read the same book 6 times now, awesome read! 

[B3n]

As an aside if you like this you need to read Apache by Ed Macy. Quite possibly one of the best books I have ever read.

 
Ive got it in my room and im about to pack it into my bag to take to the loop tomorrow

Love the apache

[damoegan]

 

Already read the book too 

[damoegan]

What channel  

Edit: Found it 

[Hedge]

Ah yes sorry Ch4. 

[berg]

yes was very good, but £43 million a helicopter and £80k a missile.

please dont tell me they were firing one missile to kill one taliban at £80k a pop? surely they should be tackling them with the 30mm cannon if it just a goatherder in his pyjamas??

[vRS Carl]

yes was very good, but £43 million a helicopter and £80k a missile.

please dont tell me they were firing one missile to kill one taliban at £80k a pop? surely they should be tackling them with the 30mm cannon if it just a goatherder in his pyjamas??

Why is £80k to kill one taliban too much? Are you saying the life of a british soldier is not worth £80k? I would quite happily spend £8m if it meant saving the life of one British Soldier.

As a serving member of the forces and also someone who controls Apache's amongst other things i can assure you that they don't use Hellfire willy nilly. Firstly a Hellfire costs just over £44k not £80k. Secondly if they fire a 30mm round from 2k away the chances of hitting one bloke in a tree line at the edge of a field are slim. Use a hellfire and you guarantee to kill the fcuker or at least very seriously injure them if they are hiding between compounds etc.

It is the rules of engagement and the rules of collateral damage that decide the munition to use. For example i talk the Apache on to the target and advise what weapons he can NOT use only if their is a risk to friendly forces. It is ultimately up to the Weapons Officer in the Apache to decide what munition to use to achieve the effect i require on the ground, whilst having no risk to civillians and an expectation of minimal to zero collateral damage. Once he is happy and is ready to engage he will then tell me what he is going to do and ask for clearance to engage. All this takes place in a few seconds. In the instances shown in that programme you have seen a brief snapshot of a mission that would have lasted hours. You don't know the reasons behind the engagement and the last thing an Apache wants is to use 30mm, miss and have the insurgent return fire with a PKM (Russian 7.62mm belt fed Machine gun). Once a 30mm round leaves the barrel the pilot has no control over the munition. With Hellfire he still has a degree of control which is why they use them for difficult targets.

[Hedge]

 

[berg]

yes was very good, but £43 million a helicopter and £80k a missile.

please dont tell me they were firing one missile to kill one taliban at £80k a pop? surely they should be tackling them with the 30mm cannon if it just a goatherder in his pyjamas??

Why is £80k to kill one taliban too much? Are you saying the life of a british soldier is not worth £80k? I would quite happily spend £8m if it meant saving the life of one British Soldier.

As a serving member of the forces and also someone who controls Apache's amongst other things i can assure you that they don't use Hellfire willy nilly. Firstly a Hellfire costs just over £44k not £80k. Secondly if they fire a 30mm round from 2k away the chances of hitting one bloke in a tree line at the edge of a field are slim. Use a hellfire and you guarantee to kill the fcuker or at least very seriously injure them if they are hiding between compounds etc.

It is the rules of engagement and the rules of collateral damage that decide the munition to use. For example i talk the Apache on to the target and advise what weapons he can NOT use only if their is a risk to friendly forces. It is ultimately up to the Weapons Officer in the Apache to decide what munition to use to achieve the effect i require on the ground, whilst having no risk to civillians and an expectation of minimal to zero collateral damage. Once he is happy and is ready to engage he will then tell me what he is going to do and ask for clearance to engage. All this takes place in a few seconds. In the instances shown in that programme you have seen a brief snapshot of a mission that would have lasted hours. You don't know the reasons behind the engagement and the last thing an Apache wants is to use 30mm, miss and have the insurgent return fire with a PKM (Russian 7.62mm belt fed Machine gun). Once a 30mm round leaves the barrel the pilot has no control over the munition. With Hellfire he still has a degree of control which is why they use them for difficult targets.

very informative, thank you. It is still a very expensive kill ratio from a monetary point of view, but yes if you look at it in terms of that one missile saving some of our boys lives because the insurgent was going to lay IED's then yes it is worth it of course. and yes i take the point re the missile being a more effective weapon of choice.

[berg]

yes was very good, but £43 million a helicopter and £80k a missile.

please dont tell me they were firing one missile to kill one taliban at £80k a pop? surely they should be tackling them with the 30mm cannon if it just a goatherder in his pyjamas??

Why is £80k to kill one taliban too much? Are you saying the life of a british soldier is not worth £80k? I would quite happily spend £8m if it meant saving the life of one British Soldier.

As a serving member of the forces and also someone who controls Apache's amongst other things i can assure you that they don't use Hellfire willy nilly. Firstly a Hellfire costs just over £44k not £80k. Secondly if they fire a 30mm round from 2k away the chances of hitting one bloke in a tree line at the edge of a field are slim. Use a hellfire and you guarantee to kill the fcuker or at least very seriously injure them if they are hiding between compounds etc.

It is the rules of engagement and the rules of collateral damage that decide the munition to use. For example i talk the Apache on to the target and advise what weapons he can NOT use only if their is a risk to friendly forces. It is ultimately up to the Weapons Officer in the Apache to decide what munition to use to achieve the effect i require on the ground, whilst having no risk to civillians and an expectation of minimal to zero collateral damage. Once he is happy and is ready to engage he will then tell me what he is going to do and ask for clearance to engage. All this takes place in a few seconds. In the instances shown in that programme you have seen a brief snapshot of a mission that would have lasted hours. You don't know the reasons behind the engagement and the last thing an Apache wants is to use 30mm, miss and have the insurgent return fire with a PKM (Russian 7.62mm belt fed Machine gun). Once a 30mm round leaves the barrel the pilot has no control over the munition. With Hellfire he still has a degree of control which is why they use them for difficult targets.

out of interest Carl, would a PKM only cause problems for the Apache if the rounds hit the rotor blades, as is the rest of it so heavily armoured, or would it still potentially bring it down if hit the engine covers, cockpit etc?

[Hedge]

Having seen an Apache up close I wouldn't say it was heavily armoured.
What it relies on is hiding away and using it's Longbow radar to designate targets based upon perceived threat, bit like Airwolf used to do. 

Also all it's major systems are very redundant and it has massive firepower and fantastic manoeuvrability on it's side.

If Chuck Norris did Attack Helicopters.......

[vRS Carl]

I'll try to explain, but not to make this too complex and i'm doing it from memory so my figures are all approximates. It's not as simple as what an Apache can/can't withstand

The Apache is a very robust Helicopter which can take a lot of abuse/hits. However a PKM fires a 7.62mm x 54mm round. The round itself (i.e the bit that comes out the barrel) is 7.62mm diameter and 24mm long. The PKM has a cyclic rate of 600-850 rds per minute depending on the variant. Cyclic rate basically means that if you had a never ending belt of ammunition and kept your finger on the trigger it would fire upto 850rds in one minute or about 14rds a second.

Now the insurgents bullet of choice for these is the Armour Piercing, or AP, bullet which is a Heavy Steel/Lead core (depending on manufacturer) sheathed with a copper jacket. At 1000m this round is still packing over 2000lb/ft of energy and weighs about 25grams (vs 20 for the non armour piercing). At 2000m it is still carrying over 1400lb/ft of energy. Although the effective range is supposedly 1800m i wouldn't want to be stood any closer than 3000m without protection.

Now although the Apache will take a lot of abuse and hits the insurgents don't control their rate of fire, they spray and slay as we call it. 14 AP rds a second can do a lot of damage to an Apache. The Americans have had one shot down due to AK47 fire (which is a far shorter/far less powerful round in terms of penetration fire) but they were lucky hits that knackered the disc (rotors). The Cockpit will only protect really from ricochets and non AP rounds and then you have the Hellfire's and rocket pods on the outside. If you imagine a Hellfire missile is something that is angry but stable, it then gets hit with a couple of AP rounds and it suddenly becomes very angry and very unstable and it's something the pilot doesn't want sat on the rail. He can't fire it off incase it causes premature detonation taking the AH down. I have seen how the Bomb disposal guys have to deal with one of those and trust me i'd much rather face whatever the insurgents can throw at me.

[damoegan]

Carl, guess you are a FAC?