Motech mapped DSG 'hesitation' after gear change - FIXED. R-TECH Reign supreme

[john a]

This is an interesting read and sort of similar to my own experiences. I decided on Motech after reading a lot of posts and threads and, in particular, the OPs post about getting his TFSI car mapped by Motech. My graph, following my Motech map:


KU07 RR by jonnyguitar, on Flickr

I have manual car but suspect my issues are due to the torque limiters not being raised. I have looked at a couple of post-Motech remap graphs and it certainly looks like they know how to map a car, but I need to do some logging to make sure I am checking the right things, and hoping for a response from Motech in the week.

[RedRobin]

.
Interesting thread.

I've got the Revo DSG remap (and Revo Stage 2 ECU remap) and I also pre-release tested it for a long time. It's very smooth and really what VW should have released ex factory. I guess that an ECU remapped car will highlight the shortcomings of the OEM DSG box of tricks.

Looking at that dyno plot above, I have to say that the words "dynodaze" and "Power Runs For Fun" don't exactly inspire my confidence. Dyno days are fun socially but the process is a valuable diagnostic opportunity not an opportunity for just willy waving.

[heavyd]

I only thought the torque limiters were with the dsg box mind? I must add, that graph doesnt look very smooth at all,

[john a]

.
Interesting thread.

I've got the Revo DSG remap (and Revo Stage 2 ECU remap) and I also pre-release tested it for a long time. It's very smooth and really what VW should have released ex factory. I guess that an ECU remapped car will highlight the shortcomings of the OEM DSG box of tricks.

Looking at that dyno plot above, I have to say that the words "dynodaze" and "Power Runs For Fun" don't exactly inspire my confidence. Dyno days are fun socially but the process is a valuable diagnostic opportunity not an opportunity for just willy waving.

I was sent there on a recommendation from R-Tech (who are next door) who I rang for a booking and was told they were busy, I had the same thoughts about the name but I think it is fair to say the company shouldn't be judged by their choice of name. If anything, If anything, I think it makes them more approachable as a business and probably gives people an opportunity to learn and understand the diagnostic process and not just get a list of numbers to give them some bragging rights. These sort of opportunities should be open to everyone rather than those who think it's reserved for a select group.

The R-Tech chap, whose name escapes me now, did come in and take a look at that graph and determine that something is not right, either with the map or hardware (but suspects the map) and I plan on having the car logged by R-Tech to determine the issues.

[PDT]

Get it on a decent dyno, the one you have had it tested in is a "V-tec" dyno

(for those not in the know about dyno's a good quality 2wd Dyno Dynamics or Mainline dyno which are the worlds benchmark products cost £40k+ the one used to test the above graph costs £12k, often seen for sale on ebay)


What did the datalogs and dyno results on Motechs dyno say when it was mapped? i believe they have a Dyno Dynamics? Dont see why you should pay out again for yet another company to work on the car?

[john a]

Understood, when Dynodaze was recommended by R-Tech I did question the accuracy of their dyno and was told 'about the same as ours', so had no reason to further question. I am not informed when it comes to these things, but concur that Dyno Dynamics is supposed to be the industry standard.

Motech do not own a dyno, apparently principally because of the proximity to Dyno Dynamics, they do not feel the need. Some logging was done and the car was found to be doing the necessary, although I doubt that this data was logged as a csv to show the car's behaviour under load.
I have started doing some logging and it is a case of interpreting the data. Once I understand what the cause is, I can look at a solution (whether it's hardware or map).
I'd rather not spend out money with somebody else on sorting this out, if it's not a hardware issue, but hopefully I'll get a response from Motech in the week and we can go from there.

[PDT]

God luck with it, if you need any help with logs, just ask.

Love the reason behind not having a dyno 

[R-tech-Nick]

I think before putting dynodaze down you need to get facts correct.


The "V-tec" dyno gives acutally fly wheel readings calculated from wheel hp and coast down losses, it dont guess fly wheel the power like a DD rolling road..   LOL   If you can answer me the question how does a DD rolling road give actual flywheel hp readings?? As IMO a DD rr is only good for TRUE wheel HP numbers?    (well marketed the only reason I cancled my order with Mike @ DD he could not show me how the system worked out the trasmission losses)

The picture on ebay is the base line model for £12k, inerita only pc based, the one dynodaze use has the full controller with 128 input highspeed  data logging.  It works really well and give correct numbers and graphs by using raw data, not fancy algorithms like thr DD to work fly wheel hp out.


 Its a very good rolling road setup, its unbias as dyno daze dont sell remaps or software they just do rolling road power runs and logging and rent out to tuners to fill a void in the market.   It reads simalar number to my Bosch dyno +/-2hp and about bang on wheel HP as the two DD rolling roads I use, the only variation between all four dynos is the reading at the fly v both the DDs.    The reason I send people to dynodaze who want to there cars tested with other tuners map is to get rid of the bias factor.  If there are issues then we will take on the added logging work to find faults.

All of my rolling road days are now ran on the dyno daze rolling road so I dont get called bias...  If it was crap I am 100% sure I would not put name name aginst it.

You will find a lot of maps which aint setup on a dyno feel good on the road but dont offer the smoothest graphs, a dyno at the end of the day is a tool to aid tuning and to gain a visual picture of whats going on.

[Janner_Sy]

i was always under the impression that DD rollers apply a set transmission loss set from a database.  This is why its WHP that is accurate on the DD rollers and not Fly Hp as it doesnt take into account how tight its strapped or tyre presures etc.  What that does mean though is DD rollers are consistent between cars at different DD rollers.

Others such as MAHA and Bapro rollers for instance use the coast down method to measure the actual losses.

[R-tech-Nick]

i was always under the impression that DD rollers apply a set transmission loss set from a database.  This is why its WHP that is accurate on the DD rollers and not Fly Hp as it doesnt take into account how tight its strapped or tyre presures etc.  What that does mean though is DD rollers are consistent between cars at different DD rollers.

Others such as MAHA and Bapro rollers for instance use the coast down method to measure the actual losses.

What that does mean though is DD rollers are consistent between cars at different DD rollers.  Marketing stunt.   They are not consistent across the UK some read low and get called heath breakers some read realistic and some read happy.

Good DD ops should give reading both at fly wheel and wheel, when I use the 4wd DD dyno I always give the readings of wheel hp and fly hp.   On my dyno I give the graph with wheel hp curve with losses at the bottom to give a measured fly wheel hp reading. 

[john a]

The logging runs suggest the car is OK. A much more knowledgable person that I has suggested that a different intake may smooth things out a little but I am unconvinced that there is not something in the map causing the dip, which I can feel on the road as well as is apparent plotted on the graph. I am awaiting a response from Motech but hopefully this can be resolved quickly like the OP's issue.

[R-tech-Nick]

The logging runs suggest the car is OK. A much more knowledgable person that I has suggested that a different intake may smooth things out a little but I am unconvinced that there is not something in the map causing the dip, which I can feel on the road as well as is apparent plotted on the graph. I am awaiting a response from Motech but hopefully this can be resolved quickly like the OP's issue.

The dyno graph will show whats going on on the road, some  dyno operators use very high graph filters to smooth the plots out to make the curve "look" good and give higher number.  I know dynodaze use a very low graph filter as there task is just to show the customer the power output and a true plot of what the car is doing.

[john a]

Understood, so would you expect some small peaks like the graph shows or would you expect it to be dead smooth?

An excerpt of a log below, does show the torque drops off fairly readily. Get your specs out, helps if you open the image and then zoom in a bit.


Log by jonnyguitar, on Flickr

[R-tech-Nick]

N75 PID controller occilations is your cause dude..

 The requested ramp rate of the boost is far to low and linear for a basic 1bar tune.

  KFLDIMX ( i pilot N75% control on spool up) is a little to aggressive for the profile of the LDRXN (boost/load request curve)  ECU seeing 250mb of boost overshoot around 2500rpm the ecu via PID controllers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller is trying to bring the boost in line. The problem is when controlling boost with around 50% DC is that the N75 is more like an on off swicth and is hard to get linear control in short period of time. 

  Easy fix would be set the LDRXN boost/load profile to match the actual boost by requesting the boost to spool and peak to 2250mb, Plus the ecu finds it hard to hold a flat line boost your map is 2000mb flat line which keeps N75 around that 50% mark,  maybe worth going for 2080/2090mb to ride the n75 close to 60%. 

I am sure Mike will find this area and cure it for you.
Nick

[Top Cat]

N75 PID controller occilations is your cause dude..

 The requested ramp rate of the boost is far to low and linear for a basic 1bar tune.

  KFLDIMX ( i pilot N75% control on spool up) is a little to aggressive for the profile of the LDRXN (boost/load request curve)  ECU seeing 250mb of boost overshoot around 2500rpm the ecu via PID controllers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller is trying to bring the boost in line. The problem is when controlling boost with around 50% DC is that the N75 is more like an on off swicth and is hard to get linear control in short period of time. 

  Easy fix would be set the LDRXN boost/load profile to match the actual boost by requesting the boost to spool and peak to 2250mb, Plus the ecu finds it hard to hold a flat line boost your map is 2000mb flat line which keeps N75 around that 50% mark,  maybe worth going for 2080/2090mb to ride the n75 close to 60%. 

I am sure Mike will find this area and cure it for you.
Nick

Makes perfect sense to me.