Brake upgrades (RS4)

[xxx_mojo_xxx]

...It is for this very reason, that VW now demand that ONLY 501.14 fluid is used...

HTH

Is that dot 5.1 brake fluid. Apologies in advance for my ignorance.

[cuprak1]

is the yellow ones the same as on the R32?
How did you get the badge on?

I have an Leon cupra Mk2 and want to fit a bodge wit a loggo but havent find anything to fit?

Regards// michael

x2

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Never had an issue with Motul RB600F...more than capable over the OE stuff.

Most of the people I know racing in the National Windcreen champ are using it and is used elsewhere in Msport.

Certainly a viable upgrade that won't harm your braking efficiency.

The issue with RBF isn't anything to do with it being 'capable' or not, nor is it questioned about it's motorsport credentials.  What is very highly questionable - is simply that it will fcuk up the ESP unit!  Hence why I keep batting on about road cars - with their 'delicate' ESP units, which must ONLY be fed with genuine VW fluid. 

I've run Motul RB600F in my previous MKIV,RS4,VR6, MK2 16v Slick 50 race car....never an issue on the ESP and it's certainly of a the adequate viscosity to be reliable.
Mr Brockbank over at Badger 5 on Seatcupra net also swears by it. We've both been around the track and race scene for years and used it with good effect. I take it that the VW fluid has been upgraded in the last few years as the old VW fluid was a DOT 4 then went 5.1

Like I have repeatedly stated - I am NOT deying its credentials when used on the race track.

One crucial point - which you repeatedly keep missing, is that Motul RBF is NOT suitable for ESP systems (from ALL road car makers), NOR is it approved by Volkswagen.

And for the genuine VW brake fluid - it has never been DOT5.1 rated.  The original VW fluid was DOT3, and their current fluid is DOT4.  But VW have completely DITCHED all DOT requirements.  From 2006, the only 'standard' for brake fluid was VW501.14 - they completely abandoned all requirements for a DOT specification.  BMW, Mercedes and Renault also abandoned DOT requirements, and now demand ISO Class rated fluids (either Class 4 or Class 6).

And don't get hung up on DOT ratings.  I've repeatedly stated this - the genuine VW fluid (which is still DOT4 rated) outperforms (in terms of wet and dry boiling points) many DOT5.1 fluids.  Remember, to achieve a DOT rating - a fluid just needs to pass with the minimum of thresholds a certain wet and dry boil points.  However, some fluids will only just clear those thresholds, whilst others (including VWs own fluid) clears them by a huge margin.


Going back to the DOT ratings - these are American standards, and just like the American API standards for engine oils and gear oils, NO European manufacturer bothers with API standards - because they are woefully inadequate for high tech European engines & gearboxes - and Europe is going the same way with DOT specs for brake fluid.

As you comment SRF does the biz and retails for alot more but you can't discount Motul.

Again, this is referring to MOTORSPORT applications.  If you want to use non VW approved motorsport fluids in your own car, then that is your choice - but please be aware of potential problems to your ESP, and any such ESP problems would be denied warranty work.

[Janner_Sy]

well that explains why i had horrendous brake travels after 3 laps of the ring with Oem fluid, but with motul RBF it stayed solid

[chungster]

well that explains why i had horrendous brake travels after 3 laps of the ring with Oem fluid, but with motul RBF it stayed solid

That's interesting cos brake god dave told me the ring is not actually that hard on brakes, the corners are fast so it's more about carrying speed thru them than heavy braking. Apart from the first hairpin after flugplatz or whatever it's called at the beginning there's not much heavy braking after that in my view. Maybe it's your driving style and technique that needs modifying??

[vRS Carl]

Maybe it's your driving style and technique that needs modifying??

Yup it does. I've been in a car with him 

[Janner_Sy]

well that explains why i had horrendous brake travels after 3 laps of the ring with Oem fluid, but with motul RBF it stayed solid

That's interesting cos brake god dave told me the ring is not actually that hard on brakes, the corners are fast so it's more about carrying speed thru them than heavy braking. Apart from the first hairpin after flugplatz or whatever it's called at the beginning there's not much heavy braking after that in my view. Maybe it's your driving style and technique that needs modifying??

in that case since you have been told about it......

Im not new to the ring and im not new to track days in general and in that car either.  I get instruction when ever i can on track days and i can assure you my braking has never been an issue.  

you are correct, its not that hard on the brakes in comparison to other tracks, but the Oem pads and fluid could not cope with more than 2 laps without cooling down.  When you are braking from well into triple figures down to 30-50mph and they take an age to recover and progressively worsen the more they are used obviously. By the time your sat in the queue waiting to leave the pedal travel was horrendous.  However to be fair the weather was also 30degrees+.

With better pads and fluid i never had in issue at all. and could manage multiple laps with small fade but no issue in pedal travel.  

the ring might not be hard on brakes, but it doesnt need to be to overheat the Oem setup.

Maybe it's your driving style and technique that needs modifying??

Yup it does. I've been in a car with him  

behave; they dont call me Hamilton for nothing.......oh wait, they dont call me that at all


anyway my original post was aimed at T_T's claim that the Oem fluid is excellent and surpasses everything else because i found from personal experience the opposite

[Teutonic_Tamer]

well that explains why i had horrendous brake travels after 3 laps of the ring with Oem fluid, but with motul RBF it stayed solid

That's interesting cos brake god dave told me the ring is not actually that hard on brakes, the corners are fast so it's more about carrying speed thru them than heavy braking. Apart from the first hairpin after flugplatz or whatever it's called at the beginning there's not much heavy braking after that in my view. Maybe it's your driving style and technique that needs modifying??

in that case since you have been told about it......

Im not new to the ring and im not new to track days in general and in that car either.  I get instruction when ever i can on track days and i can assure you my braking has never been an issue.  

you are correct, its not that hard on the brakes in comparison to other tracks, but the Oem pads and fluid could not cope with more than 2 laps without cooling down.  When you are braking from well into triple figures down to 30-50mph and they take an age to recover and progressively worsen the more they are used obviously. By the time your sat in the queue waiting to leave the pedal travel was horrendous.  However to be fair the weather was also 30degrees+.

That sounds exactly like fading of your friction lining, and NOT boiling of the brake fluid.  Did your pedal travel resume after the brakes had cooled?

anyway my original post was aimed at T_T's claim that the Oem fluid is excellent and surpasses everything else because i found from personal experience the opposite

Kindly STOP twisting my words.  I NEVER said that the OEM fluid 'surpasses everything else'.

What I did say was the OEM fluid surpasses many 5.1 fluids.  I fully accept that there are a few specialist fluids with very high temp tollerances, and these include the excellent Castrol SRF and Motul RBF.  Furthermore, I accept, and have also stated that SRF and/or RBF are best used for motorsport applications.

However, I stand by my claim that the OEM fluid is an excellent one.  To 'clarify' my POV, the OEM fluid is by far the best (highest dry and wet boiling point) of all the 'DOT4' fluids.  And I clarify this further, the VW OEM fluid is used in heavyweight monster 200+mph Bentleys (with iron or ceramic brakes), it is used in all Audi RS and R8 cars (again, either iron or ceramic), it is used Lamborghinis (guess what - with iron or ceramic) - and finally, it is used in the worlds fastest road legal production car - the Bugatti Veyron (only available with ceramics).  ALL the cars I've listed are heavier than a GTI/Cupra/vRS etc, and whilst I personally havn't tracked my current cars, I have seriously spanked my RS for a lengthy period in the Bavarain Alps, with the car fully loaded (roughly 2¼ tonne) - and never had issues with either fade or boiling fluid.  I have been on a track day (in my old S4) when a new B7 RS4 with irons was there, and again, the RS4 never had any brake issues.  I had pad fade in my S4 (giving a long pedal), but once they cooled, the pedal travel returned to normal - all these clearly indicate that the standard fluid is up to the job of all but the most hardcore track addicts (and professional motorsport).  The weak link is always the pads, when brake fade is experienced.


If you want to disagree with me, then that's fine, I don't have an issue with that.  But I do not appreciate being mis-quoted, or being quoted out of context.  Rgds. 

[Janner_Sy]

excessive brake pedal travel doesnt come as a result of fade on the pads.  I have still managed to get all my brake pads to fade at some point n track, but only with Oem fluid did i get the excessive travel. 

Come to think of it when my pedal got like that i went for a really long cruise to cool it all down, before trying it again on track.  it happened again and i went back home.  (the joys of living 92 mile from the ring )  I changed the fluid and pads that week and they were fine the next time i went.

Apologies for the mis-interpretation of your post, and whilst the  top end VAg vehicles might use the same fluid, there are many other variables that would make it work better in them than it would mine, for instance massively larger discs that deal with the heat in a much more efficient way, cooling, ducting etc etc.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

excessive brake pedal travel doesnt come as a result of fade on the pads.

Maybe not always - but it can do.  If you just get to the 'start' point of fading the pads (when they start gassing), then the pedal just feels wooden.  But if the pad fade becomes much more intense, then the actual friction lining starts to brake down (the bonding agents basically 'melt') and becomes mushy - and this is when you can get a long pedal from pad fade.  Then when they cool down, the pads then harden up again - though never fully, and the pedal travel will mostly normalise.  A bit like if you leave a mars bar on your dash in the sun - it goes all squidy and 'orrible, but put it in the fridge and it firms up again, but isn't the same!  When you remove pads that have been faded to extremes, the friction lining often just crumbles away from the back plate.

But yes, I also agree that boiling fluid will also cause the pedal to sink to the floor.  But there is a subtle difference - with just pad fade, the pedal gets progressively longer and longer, whilst boiling fluid will send the pedal all the way to the floor in just one go.

I have still managed to get all my brake pads to fade at some point n track, but only with Oem fluid did i get the excessive travel.

Then you must be seriously spanking your brakes.   Like I said though, OEM fluid isn't ideal for such use, and proper motorsport rated fluids should be used in such extreme conditions.

Come to think of it when my pedal got like that i went for a really long cruise to cool it all down, before trying it again on track.  it happened again and i went back home.  (the joys of living 92 mile from the ring )  I changed the fluid and pads that week and they were fine the next time i went.

But what were the pads like?  Were they all 'crazed' and crumbly?

I reckon both the fluid AND the pads were at fault - and I wonder if you just changed pads alone, weather the pedal would have restored (after correctly bedding them in).  (I'm not advocating not to have changed the fluid though!).

Apologies for the mis-interpretation of your post,

No worries mate - I'm sure we are all prone to misquoting others from time to time, me included. 

and whilst the  top end VAg vehicles might use the same fluid, there are many other variables that would make it work better in them than it would mine, for instance massively larger discs that deal with the heat in a much more efficient way, cooling, ducting etc etc.

And you have hit the nail on the head.  Can't remember if you have a vRS or a GTI - if you do have a GTI, have you fitted the 'open' fog lamp grilles?  Because these actually make brake cooling worse!  Because you seem a bit of a hardcore track addict, have you thought about possibly ducting your brakes?

[Janner_Sy]

no longer have a vRS, im in the market for new wheels at the minute. got 10k burning a whole in my pocket, but just cant decide what to get. 

I do really use the brakes on my car on track trying to go as late as possible, which to be fair isnt the best idea on stock sized brakes lol.
Had i kept the vRS id have changed brakes. for me they were the weak point big style.

have you fitted the 'open' fog lamp grilles?  Because these actually make brake cooling worse!  Because you seem a bit of a hardcore track addict, have you thought about possibly ducting your brakes?

am i reading that right, it sort of contracdicts itself.  I had considered ducting though, but the problem is doing it in a tasteful manner

[vRSAlex]

have you fitted the 'open' fog lamp grilles?  Because these actually make brake cooling worse!  Because you seem a bit of a hardcore track addict, have you thought about possibly ducting your brakes?

am i reading that right, it sort of contracdicts itself.  I had considered ducting though, but the problem is doing it in a tasteful manner

Does a bit    Just running ducting into the wheel area wont help with cooling.  It needs to be on the back of the disc.

You cant really run ducts on the golf through the fog lamp areas due to the washer bottle being in the way on the drivers side.  I did some ducts on a MK5 from under the car attached to the underside of the arch liners.  I have some pics somewhere I will dig out.  The hose ran on the inside if the arch liner then along the wishbone to the bottom of the disc.  It noticably dropped disc temps after checking before and after with a temp gauge.  Porsche cup cars run very similar routes for their ducting.  Just with more carbon kevlar bits!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

have you fitted the 'open' fog lamp grilles?  Because these actually make brake cooling worse!  Because you seem a bit of a hardcore track addict, have you thought about possibly ducting your brakes?

am i reading that right, it sort of contracdicts itself.  I had considered ducting though, but the problem is doing it in a tasteful manner

You need to carefully look at the airflow for the OEM front brake ducts.  On the GTI (& Eddy) the lower front lip collects air from the front of the car, and then 'spills' the collected air (with help from high pressure generation from standard 'closed' fog lamp grilles) under the bumper roughly below the fog lamps.  Grovel on the floor and you will see the collection ducts for the front brakes directly under these points.

But fit open fog lamp grilles, and not only do you allow air to basically spill aimlessly into your engine compartment, you also remove the high pressure area which helps the lower splitter from spilling air underneath and into the OEM brake ducts.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

have you fitted the 'open' fog lamp grilles?  Because these actually make brake cooling worse!  Because you seem a bit of a hardcore track addict, have you thought about possibly ducting your brakes?

am i reading that right, it sort of contracdicts itself.  I had considered ducting though, but the problem is doing it in a tasteful manner

Does a bit    Just running ducting into the wheel area wont help with cooling.  It needs to be on the back of the disc.

Hmmmm - not completely necesary.  Yes, if you are utterly hardcore, and braking is fairly on the edge, then yes, direct cooling trunking hoses directly at the rear face of the disc.

But general air into the wheel arch behind the wheel is generally good enough - that is how the Mk5, the RS4, R8, RS6 etc all feed their front anchors.

You cant really run ducts on the golf through the fog lamp areas due to the washer bottle being in the way on the drivers side.  I did some ducts on a MK5 from under the car attached to the underside of the arch liners.  I have some pics somewhere I will dig out.  The hose ran on the inside if the arch liner then along the wishbone to the bottom of the disc.  It noticably dropped disc temps after checking before and after with a temp gauge.  Porsche cup cars run very similar routes for their ducting.  Just with more carbon kevlar bits!

I'm sure I've seen Mk5s with ducting where the fogs were.  Maybe the washer bottle was completely re-sited.

[Cupra R]

is the yellow ones the same as on the R32?
How did you get the badge on?

I have an Leon cupra Mk2 and want to fit a bodge wit a loggo but havent find anything to fit?

Regards// michael

Just buy some caliper brackets from an R32 off the likes of Ebay Micheal, then paint them, put a sticker on, then laquer them.

Cheap as chip's. Clip's cost me about £3.50 I think off Ebay.