APR stage 2+ v3.0

[djhorace]

The unfortunate fact of the matter though, is that if me being here just results in more people from the UK buying from other countries, we will have to pull out of the market as we won't be able to sustain the costs of the operation.  However, I'm not terribly worried about it because most people will buy from us due to our levels of service and most importantly because they want to have a warranty.

Pretty confident words.

I am sure most people will think differently with their wallets though considering an APR intercooler of similar dimensions and characteristics to a THS intercooler is £400 or 66.6% more expensive. Enjoy your short stay in the UK 

[djhorace]

Imagine this, you are a small business in a local town.  You sell and promote the APR brand.  You go to local shows, develop local marketing, provide great customer service, etc.  One day a client that has been to see you often and you've given great service to, even fixed small things on their engine FOC like a rotting vacuum line or whatnot, shows up with APR products for install that were purchased some place else.  You install the product but APR made a mistake and something doesn't fit as it should.  What should you do?  Spend your time and money working with APR to correct the issue or charge the client for the work you did and send him on his way without his APR product installed?

Look at it on APR's end.  If the APR dealer calls APR for support and APR says, on this particular car you need an extra part that the client didn't order, we thought you knew that.  The dealer then says, yeah, but he didn't buy it from me.  Then comes and tells you you didn't buy the extra part and you need to spend more money.  You are going to be upset and APR is more than likely just going to give you the extra part.  This costs APR money and the dealer his time and money who is more than likely going to install the extra part FOC.

We have experts in local markets because they are experts.  Expertise deserves compensation.

Welcome to the industry I work for - we have customers buying from all over the world, and when they move their equipment from location A to B, we don't disown them - support and warranty is essential everywhere. The customer shouldn't have to pay for a silly pricing policy - it should be down to APR to make sure their products are just as affordable in one place as it is in another to avoid such a situatuion. Any internal politics or justification really amopunts to irrelevance in the eye of a customer when the price for a product is massively more expensive than a) others b) it needs to be.

[/£0.02]

[Keith@APR]

The unfortunate fact of the matter though, is that if me being here just results in more people from the UK buying from other countries, we will have to pull out of the market as we won't be able to sustain the costs of the operation.  However, I'm not terribly worried about it because most people will buy from us due to our levels of service and most importantly because they want to have a warranty.

Pretty confident words.

I am sure most people will think differently with their wallets though considering an APR intercooler of similar dimensions and characteristics to a THS intercooler is £400 or 66.6% more expensive. Enjoy your short stay in the UK 

lol  Thanks!

If people are looking simply for the lowest price possible, APR is not the brand they should be looking at anyways.  Its a similar situation for Apple and other American companies over here.  The 27" Cinema Display is 400GBP more expensive here that it is in the States.

[djhorace]

So what you are saying there is that with APR, you are paying for the name?

Tests prove the THS to be at least as good as the APR 

[Keith@APR]

Imagine this, you are a small business in a local town.  You sell and promote the APR brand.  You go to local shows, develop local marketing, provide great customer service, etc.  One day a client that has been to see you often and you've given great service to, even fixed small things on their engine FOC like a rotting vacuum line or whatnot, shows up with APR products for install that were purchased some place else.  You install the product but APR made a mistake and something doesn't fit as it should.  What should you do?  Spend your time and money working with APR to correct the issue or charge the client for the work you did and send him on his way without his APR product installed?

Look at it on APR's end.  If the APR dealer calls APR for support and APR says, on this particular car you need an extra part that the client didn't order, we thought you knew that.  The dealer then says, yeah, but he didn't buy it from me.  Then comes and tells you you didn't buy the extra part and you need to spend more money.  You are going to be upset and APR is more than likely just going to give you the extra part.  This costs APR money and the dealer his time and money who is more than likely going to install the extra part FOC.

We have experts in local markets because they are experts.  Expertise deserves compensation.

Welcome to the industry I work for - we have customers buying from all over the world, and when they move their equipment from location A to B, we don't disown them - support and warranty is essential everywhere. The customer shouldn't have to pay for a silly pricing policy - it should be down to APR to make sure their products are just as affordable in one place as it is in another to avoid such a situatuion. Any internal politics or justification really amopunts to irrelevance in the eye of a customer when the price for a product is massively more expensive than a) others b) it needs to be.

[/£0.02]

Ah yes, but your place of employment has already added the cost of support into their selling price.  If they haven't, it could be the death of them.

For example, look at APR prices in Australia.  Our importer there, a completely independent company, has included the price of support in their selling price and its significantly higher than we have in the UK.

Furthermore, companies that innovate and release new products ahead of the competition will also almost always have a higher selling price.  Those that are later to market don't often suffer the same R&D burden so therefore they can significantly reduce costs.  Plus, you guys should enquire about where these lower cost products are actually produced and reflect upon the company's answer, "Do they really have a foundry at their location to make the ic end tanks?".

Think about it, the USA has lower labor rates, lower costs of materials, a weaker currency and therefore lower selling prices than most of Europe.  So how does a European company offer a comparable product for less?

[Keith@APR]

So what you are saying there is that with APR, you are paying for the name?

Tests prove the THS to be at least as good as the APR 

No, not all.  Is that what my Apple example meant to you?  I apologize as I did not intend for it to sound that way.  I was just using them as an example of an American company that has to charge more for their products in the UK than in America.

Tests?  Interesting, could you share the results with me?  Linky?

[djhorace]

I work for a US company in a UK office and my customers are all round Europe. We make most of our products in the US and initial distribution is from the US and latterly through regional offices/distribution centres.

Our list price is the same the world over (difference in exchage rates and any applicable taxes being the difference). Our customers will know very quickly if the Houston office supply something more cheaply than the Singapore office and are willing to buy from the Houston office to save some cash. It therefore makes perfect sense to have the same prices everywhere. Why should APR be different? Why not change the pricing policy if people are blatently getting round fixed high UK prices to save some money, then punish them with the old warranty malarky? To use a local term, thats pretty hard necked for a company that left the UK high and dry and are trying to use their name and US reputation to come back and charging 42% more for the same hardware thats available in the US to cover "costs".

[djhorace]

No, not all.  Is that what my Apple example meant to you?  I apologise as I did not intend for it to sound that way.  I was just using them as an example of an American company that has to charge more for their products in the UK than in America.

I have the benefit of travelling with my work - so far this year I have been to Romania, Poland 3 times, Norway, USA, Holland, Germany and France. Last year I was in over 20 countries. I go to the Apple store in most places if I have the chance to compare prices as I always have people asking me to buy an iPad2 at lower prices. Now what I have found by doing this is that apple prices while being different between the likes of USA and UK, don't list local tax with the RRP where the UK price does.

Therefore a basic iPad2 at $499 plus say 10% state tax = $550 or at 60p to $1 = £330 vs £399 for the same thing in the UK. Thats a 20% difference. You guys are charging more than double that as a difference  

[djhorace]

By the way, I think its great you guys are back in the UK as competition encourages better products and keener prices for consumers. Monopolies serve no-one well. I wish you all the best in your UK venture and seriously hope you take a look at your hardware pricing just as you have with your software pricing. I know there is no way in hell I would pay £1k for an intercooler when a £600 one would do the same thing and gets great reviews, regardless of the badge/part number on the side of it not saying APR.

[Keith@APR]

I work for a US company in a UK office and my customers are all round Europe. We make most of our products in the US and initial distribution is from the US and latterly through regional offices/distribution centres.

Our list price is the same the world over (difference in exchage rates and any applicable taxes being the difference). Our customers will know very quickly if the Houston office supply something more cheaply than the Singapore office and are willing to buy from the Houston office to save some cash. It therefore makes perfect sense to have the same prices everywhere. Why should APR be different? Why not change the pricing policy if people are blatently getting round fixed high UK prices to save some money, then punish them with the old warranty malarky? To use a local term, thats pretty hard necked for a company that left the UK high and dry and are trying to use their name and US reputation to come back and charging 42% more for the same hardware thats available in the US to cover "costs".

The simple answer is we don't have enough margin in our products at the selling price they are offered for in the States.  To equalize prices around the world we would have to significantly raise the prices in America.  I think this is a legacy issue from when APR was very small.  I do see how people could think we are trying to profiteer from international sales but that is simply not the case.

If you notice, the only hardware prices that are consistent round the world in this industry are from companies like ABT and MTM.  I think the problem began when American companies began significantly undercutting the German tuners in North America.  APR came about around that time in the late 90's and followed suit of what the current market environment in the USA was like at the time.

The automotive industry has always been the exception to global pricing though.  For example, a brand new Golf R in the USA costs $36,000 or 22,900GBP.  That same Golf R over here goes for 40,000GBP+ or $62, 860+.

I don't understand this "left the UK high and dry" sentiment I've seen around.

Our importer chose to do business with a competitor which left the UK market without support for a period of time while we put together a better solution.  APR never "pulled out" of the UK market.

The UK market is so important to us that we decided to open an office and I volunteered to come and head it up.  I left my family, friends, pets and all I know to come over here.  And as you know, moving or travelling abroad seems really cool and exciting but its very difficult, time consuming and stressful.

[djhorace]

I know all about travelling, trust me! 86 flights last year is proof of that one and already since 7th Jan, I am at 24 flights and know about the family, friends etc thing too. Thing is though, while it is admirable and all, you will probably also be on an ex-pat deal, promotion potential through having worked with the company abroad and have all the perks to go with it .

I realise the whole US prices being cheaper thing and all, but you have somewhat exaggerated the price of the Golf R there. It starts at $35k plus tax vs £31k here, so using the detail above, £23k vs £31k using 60p to $1 or 34% difference which is still less than the 42%.

Hopefully you realise where I am coming from here by the way - I am not trying to be an arse - I am really stuggling to understand what justifies such premium prices. I seriously doubt your potential customers here will give 2 toots about APR margins, costs or buying things at inflated prices to keep APR in business and you away from your family and friends. Sorry for being blunt, but thats the position I am in with my products and services and in all honesty, its the position you are in too.

[Keith@APR]

I know all about travelling, trust me! 86 flights last year is proof of that one and already since 7th Jan, I am at 24 flights and know about the family, friends etc thing too. Thing is though, while it is admirable and all, you will probably also be on an ex-pat deal, promotion potential through having worked with the company abroad and have all the perks to go with it .

We should compare travels.  I think you have more flights but I have more time in the air.  Most of my flights are to Asia or America.    But yeah, you know where I'm coming from for sure.

I decided to do this simply for the challenge.  There is no vertical movement available to me at APR, I'm the VP, so its purely out of a desire to see APR do well in the UK.

realise the whole US prices being cheaper thing and all, but you have somewhat exaggerated the price of the Golf R there. It starts at $35k plus tax vs £31k here, so using the detail above, £23k vs £31k using 60p to $1 or 34% difference which is still less than the 42%.

You have to remember the spec of the cars too.  Almost all VW's are sold as "high spec" in America.  When I was shopping for my Golf R over here I asked for a new Golf R and spec'ed it to what I would have gotten in America and was quoted 42k GBP.

  you realise where I am coming from here by the way - I am not trying to be an arse - I am really stuggling to understand what justifies such premium prices. I seriously doubt your potential customers here will give 2 toots about APR margins, costs or buying things at inflated prices to keep APR in business and you away from your family and friends. Sorry for being blunt, but thats the position I am in with my products and services and in all honesty, its the position you are in too.

I understand completely and I really wish it was that simple for us.  But again, the truth of the matter is that prices would go up in America, not down in the ROW.

[djhorace]

As soon as you open a place in Aberdeen, I will happily discuss anything you want if I am in town  . I will also happily take a spin in that Golf and see whats what with it. Of course, I don't expect that place to be open here any time this year 

Regarding prices, do you realistically expect to be selling high volumes of APR products at those prices and do you think that it is fair and sustainable to keep prices low in the US at the expense of high prices the rest of the world? Surely the potential in the rest of the world is higher than the total US market?

[Janner_Sy]

Isn't this thread about the V3.0 software!!

[heavyd]

Seems to have gone off topic somewhat
Whats happening with the gokart then Sy?

I think at the end of the day, people will go to whichever companies products they want to buy.
As far as the exhaust and apr fuel pump goes, they are supposed to be the best out there, so people are willing to pay the premium. as far as FMIC is concerned, people will obviously go down other routes with products that are considered equally as good, same goes for other APR products.
The fact still exists that there are places where you can import APR pumps from cheaper than here in the UK.
The remaps are on par pricewise as Revo, but as of yet, there arent enough people whom can give feedback on them in comparison to the competitors, so only time will tell as far as they are concerened