A fixed format for Product Review Threads....

[DaveB@Vagbremtechnic]

Any suggestions?

Discuss........

[SteveP]

I agree and have been asking new threads to be updated to the format outlined in the sticky in the reviews section.

Going forward if they don't follow this standard they will be removed.

I also think a statement on how the person came to get the product would be helpful too 

[RedRobin]

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Great minds think alike - I had also started a new thread on this subject (now locked by myself):

I would also add weight to the fact that the product review threads need an overhaul to a fixed format, that format should also include a £RRP and perhaps more importantly HOW MUCH THE REVIEWER ACTUALLY PARTED WITH to get the products onto the car.

This would help anybody reading the review assess the reviewers objectivity. I think it would be fair to say anybody objecting to this open disclosure might well have an agenda.

....Who pays the full retail price for products nowadays anyway? Economic times are hard and have been for a long while and so suppliers need to shift goods.

An ability to write an objective review has nothing to do with the price a reviewer pays and it would automatically puts a negative spin on any product, no matter how excellent it is, if the reader is fed information that the reviewer didn't pay the full price. If somone thinks that the price individually paid does colour the review then they shouldn't judge others by themselves.

The other aspect of such declarations is that if a discount is declared it immediately starts everyone else demanding the same discount - We all prefer to pay as little as possible for absolutely everything we buy, not just car stuff. It then has a knock-on effect which means that the supplier becomes reluctant to give discount at all because of vociferous demands from forum customers.

To suggest that not declaring what are private purchasing transactions means that someone has an agenda in writing their review is both ridiculous and insulting.

Prices paid for goods and services vary substantially and all that is needed in a review is the normal retail price as a guide. [All in my opinion]

Discuss.......  



Btw, I agree wholeheartedly that all reviews should follow John_O's original guidelines as I do myself, and which are outlined in TopCat's guidlines sticky. 

[RedRobin]

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Here is an example to back up what I'm saying:

My current Milltek exhaust system was free of charge

It is custom made and a prototype. In other words, on my car for testing as a product with me taking the risks of such testing and with my absolute trust in Milltek for solving any issues. Its the best exhaust I've ever had on my car (he said enthusiastically) and continues into its third year.

So, does that mean I have ulterior motives or an agenda when I write a review about the product?

[RedRobin]

I also think a statement on how the person came to get the product would be helpful too 

....Can you expand on what you mean by that, please Steve.

Do you mean by such routes as recommendation, word-of-mouth, adverts? If so, how does that support a review?

[rich83]

I can't post in your thread for some reason robin......

You cant deny that receiving  exhaust/intake/brakes etc for free will put a twist on the review.

If VWR decided to give me a set of brakes for free, I would of course tell everyone they are the bestest brakes ever. If BDM gave me an intake for free I would say that it's the bestest intake.....

Robin if you'd have been offered a 'A-NOTHER' custom exhaust for free which you were happy with then you'd be flying the A-NOTHER flag, not milltek.

So it's not the customer that has the ulterior motive.

[DaveB@Vagbremtechnic]

Possibly not Robin, possibly so...

All I'm saying is as this site is non commercial it's only fair that any reviews be subjective.

if somebody gave me £1000's worth of exhaust,brakes,tyres I would find it pretty difficult to be too critical especially if it was a company that I had an ongoing relationship with.

Us "traders" need to have all our adverts vetted and approved prior to publishing, this avoids the subliminal advertising that could undermine a "sponsored" product review.

None of us are stupid, it serves the manufacturers purpose to get their products out there and there's a commercial cost to that (ie you give stuff away), I've done a skinny deal for a chap on here to get the NQSBBK onto his polo 6r, I'd be happy for the guy to publish the price.

My long winded point being I would agree in general about what you are saying regarding commercial matters and confidential discounts, could we agree that if a product is GIFTED to somebody then for the sake of openness it would be worth a mention. In the case of say Brakes if somebody helped develop a kit and was thereafter gifted it how about some pictures of the design process, the fitting, the issues the manufacturer encompassed in development. It would also be good to mention that it was free before beginning the review.

For the avoidance of doubt I'm not referring to the VWR kit, more say for example the NQSBBK kit which was tried on Joes GTI's car at the Nurburgring (at Joes cost), that thread thanks to all the contributors ( not me) is a bloody good read for anybody thinking of upgrading their brakes and is what makes this forum different from others

[RedRobin]

I can't post in your thread for some reason robin......

You cant deny that receiving  exhaust/intake/brakes etc for free will put a twist on the review.

If VWR decided to give me a set of brakes for free, I would of course tell everyone they are the bestest brakes ever. If BDM gave me an intake for free I would say that it's the bestest intake.....

Robin if you'd have been offered a 'A-NOTHER' custom exhaust for free which you were happy with then you'd be flying the A-NOTHER flag, not milltek.

So it's not the customer that has the ulterior motive.

.....Hi Rich,

You probably can't post in the other thread because I locked it so that all discussion would be here in one thread.

I most certainly can deny that receiving discounted, even free, goods makes my reviews biassed. I very consciously write and enjoy writing my reviews as objectively as I can. Read them, if you haven't already, and you'll see criticisms as well, even if later in the thread after more time in usage.

I was enthusiastic about and singing Miltek's praises long before my current exhaust 'freebie'. To counter that there are others who take every opportunity to be negative about their products.

I don't accept a product just because it's free or at a substantial discount like some folks, usually in supermarkets, do. And especially not for my car - Only the best I can afford for my beloved 'RED'.

[QD MBE]

I can't post in your thread for some reason robin......

You cant deny that receiving  exhaust/intake/brakes etc for free will put a twist on the review.

If VWR decided to give me a set of brakes for free, I would of course tell everyone they are the bestest brakes ever. If BDM gave me an intake for free I would say that it's the bestest intake.....

Robin if you'd have been offered a 'A-NOTHER' custom exhaust for free which you were happy with then you'd be flying the A-NOTHER flag, not milltek.

So it's not the customer that has the ulterior motive.

.....Hi Rich,

You probably can't post in the other thread because I locked it so that all discussion would be here in one thread.

I most certainly can deny that receiving discounted, even free, goods makes my reviews biassed. I very consciously write and enjoy writing my reviews as objectively as I can. Read them, if you haven't already, and you'll see criticisms as well, even if later in the thread after more time in usage.

I was enthusiastic about and singing Miltek's praises long before my current exhaust 'freebie'. To counter that there are others who take every opportunity to be negative about their products.

I don't accept a product just because it's free or at a substantial discount like some folks, usually in supermarkets, do. And especially not for my car - Only the best I can afford for my beloved 'RED'.

I think Review thread updates would be most useful.  A great product on fit may not be so great later down the line.

RR - I am really struggling to remember you posting a bad review, hoever, I am also struggling to remember you posting anything bad about your fitted products.

For instance, you must have had bad experiences with Miltek;

Directed right across the reviewing authors - Receiving free products must mean you have to sign a confidentially agreement?  I am of the opinion that you should disclose your involvement/sponsorship when reviewing such products, especially development items.
 

[RedRobin]

Possibly not Robin, possibly so...

All I'm saying is as this site is non commercial it's only fair that any reviews be subjective.

if somebody gave me £1000's worth of exhaust,brakes,tyres I would find it pretty difficult to be too critical especially if it was a company that I had an ongoing relationship with.

Us "traders" need to have all our adverts vetted and approved prior to publishing, this avoids the subliminal advertising that could undermine a "sponsored" product review.

None of us are stupid, it serves the manufacturers purpose to get their products out there and there's a commercial cost to that (ie you give stuff away), I've done a skinny deal for a chap on here to get the NQSBBK onto his polo 6r, I'd be happy for the guy to publish the price.

My long winded point being I would agree in general about what you are saying regarding commercial matters and confidential discounts, could we agree that if a product is GIFTED to somebody then for the sake of openness it would be worth a mention. In the case of say Brakes if somebody helped develop a kit and was thereafter gifted it how about some pictures of the design process, the fitting, the issues the manufacturer encompassed in development. It would also be good to mention that it was free before beginning the review.

....Did you mean to write "objective" instead of "subjective'?

How difficult someone might find it to write a review truly objectively when given discount is perhaps a test of character. Whenever I've been given a discount (and I never ever ask for it) and if I plan to write a review about it I always warn the supplier that I will voice my criticisms if I find any. And if I don't find any, the resulting post doesn't have any.

It doesn't say much for the reader's state of mind if all they can see in someone's positive enthusiasm is agenda or ulterior motive just because the reviewer was given discount or gift.

Words such as "Bought at Discount" AS WELL AS the normal retail price might be a way forward, but without having to declare exactly what discount - But, for the reasons I stated earlier, I'm not convinced. Unfortunately too many people see and focus on the price before they assess any goods/services.

[Top Cat]

A fixed format wont work for lots of reasons. You can try but it wont work. All the reviewer has to do is deny any discount or cheaper price. Your basically trying to change how tinternet works. Even a completely genuine review, is more often than not, loaded, because they are affirming there choices.
All you can do is use your own brain when reading the review, base your decisions on the person who wrote it as well as the product. I, for example know John_O very well as person, and i know he will be completely impartial, because thats just how he is. 
On the other side of the coin, For example  if Mat or Robin write something about VWR, then unless you have just climbed out of the ground and not read any of there posts about VWR,  you will know about their enthusiasm  :wink.
People often make choices for ridiculous reasons anyway and if you are going to buy say for example a set of brakes costing £2000 pound without thoroughly researching, then quite frankly you cant be too upset if they turn out to be average.

[RedRobin]

I think Review thread updates would be most useful.  A great product on fit may not be so great later down the line.

RR - I am really struggling to remember you posting a bad review, hoever, I am also struggling to remember you posting anything bad about your fitted products.

For instance, you must have had bad experiences with Miltek;

Receiving free products must mean you have to sign a confidentially agreement?  I am of the opinion that you should disclose your involvement/sponsorship when reviewing such products, especially development items.
 

....I for one, and I've seen others do the same, add updates to both my original post and post extra in my review threads. I'm not going to spend time reading all my review threads to point out where I have written criticisms - They are there for all to read.

I have never been asked to sign any "confidentiality agreement" in the car world - The only such document I've ever signed is for Adobe when pre-release testing their Creative Suite software - A 6-page document.

Why "must" I have had bad experiences with Milltek? - Because others state they have?

[RedRobin]

A fixed format wont work for lots of reasons. You can try but it wont work. All the reviewer has to do is deny any discount or cheaper price. Your basically trying to change how tinternet works. Even a completely genuine review, is more often than not, loaded, because they are affirming there choices.

All you can do is use your own brain when reading the review, base your decisions on the person who wrote it as well as the product. I, for example know John_O very well as person, and i know he will be completely impartial, because thats just how he is.  

On the other side of the coin, For example  if Mat or Robin write something about VWR, then unless you have just climbed out of the ground and not read any of there posts about VWR,  you will know about their enthusiasm  :wink.
 
People often make choices for ridiculous reasons anyway and if you are going to buy say for example a set of brakes costing £2000 pound without thoroughly researching, then quite frankly you cant be too upset if they turn out to be average.

....Absolutely spot-on!!    

At last someone who understands the real world! I wish I'd written that.

I would only add that rather than this site (ie SteveP) impose an absolutely rigid and fixed format, there should be strong GUIDELINES which of course get Moderated.

[MAT ED30]

A fixed format wont work for lots of reasons. You can try but it wont work. All the reviewer has to do is deny any discount or cheaper price. Your basically trying to change how tinternet works. Even a completely genuine review, is more often than not, loaded, because they are affirming there choices.
All you can do is use your own brain when reading the review, base your decisions on the person who wrote it as well as the product. I, for example know John_O very well as person, and i know he will be completely impartial, because thats just how he is.  
On the other side of the coin, For example  if Mat or Robin write something about VWR, then unless you have just climbed out of the ground and not read any of there posts about VWR,  you will know about their enthusiasm  :wink.
People often make choices for ridiculous reasons anyway and if you are going to buy say for example a set of brakes costing £2000 pound without thoroughly researching, then quite frankly you cant be too upset if they turn out to be average.

The thing also with a review it's only one persons thoughts on a product and it's upto people who have chosen to buy what ever the product is then if they can add to the review ie pros and cons. At the end of the day it's our money and what we do with is no ones business and if a product turns out not to your liking then take it up with the dealer and also post in the review section of what is going on as it helps everyone in the long run. As for the brake pad thing why was nothing ever put on the review about it ages ago   surely it was for us all to know what was happening with the pads that are more for the road then track to put into the review the brakes don't like said pads on track so I am trying something else on track  . If I was having a problem with a product that was on this site I would state it but I can only go on what a product is like on my car simple as that.  

[vRS Carl]

I think there should be a suggested format for a review, purely so that they all read the same. This would save any reviews that basically say

"dis iz da bez ting sinz slyzd bred"

I don't think posting up the price you paid if you got discount is relevant. But if it's a development product then maybe they could say "as this is a work in progress/being tested on my car i have been given the kit/given a substantial discount while they work out any problems that may occur"

I take any advice and opinions given/read exactly as that, Advice & Opinion. Do your own research and make a balanced informed judgement about the product you intend to purchase. Only you as an individual can decide if the product is what you want to spend your hard earned on. I was recently offered to have something fitted on my car for free. I never asked for that it's just that the company concerened weren't 100% sure it would fit so i was offered that if i pay the price for the item, they would fit it FOC so they could be 100% happy everything was still going to work. If i was then to write a review about the product and then make comment about the free fitting on it. Would that tarnish the evaluation of the product? Or would it display a level of customer care that is often lacking in a lot of companies these days?

We could all sit here saying that DaveB's NQSBBK is the best brake kit ever. However another forum might think they are average compared to Supastoppers-R-Us because they do a kit that is 5pence cheaper and comes in pink! This is were the individual has to work out if they want DaveB's kit or save 5p and have Pink brakes! I know i'm being humourous with that but the point i am trying to make is it's down to the individual to assess any review.

As TC says if they don't do thorough research and take ONE review thread as fact. Then i'm afraid that is their own look out imho.