±±±±±± Formula 1, 2012 Season. ±±±±±

[MC71]

 

[RedRobin]

Quality race today. Hulkenberg, Hamilton, alonso and raikonen. Good battle today

....Agreed! 

Unfortunately some people here don't allow themselves to enjoy the racing because they're too focussed on their dislike for Seb Vettel, who today demonstrated yet again why he is a world champion and why he deserves to win his 4th championship this year. I'm a Ferrari fan but that doesn't stop me enjoying F1 when they aren't winning.

[Wardy91-ed30]

....Agreed!  

Unfortunately some people here don't allow themselves to enjoy the racing because they're too focussed on their dislike for Seb Vettel, who today demonstrated yet again why he is a world champion and why he deserves to win his 4th championship this year. I'm a Ferrari fan but that doesn't stop me enjoying F1 when they aren't winning.
[/quote]

Yeah exactly. I'm a mclaren fan so should have stopped altogether watching it this season as there just nowhere near competitive   but still enjoying it. When vettel s out in front there's no stopping him, I don't hate him. Just want another team to make it more interesting, Mercedes and Ferrari are the only ones and even there nowhere now unfortunately. But.... Hey ho.  next season I think mclaren will be strongest

[Makaveli]

The problem is people dont really rate Vettels skills to be on par with previous 3 or 4 time world champions. We need to find out how good Vettel really is, the only way that is going to happen is if he races the likes of Alonso or Hamilton with the same car but lets face it he/Red Bull have not let that happen because it would most likely upset the balance and impact what the team are currently achieving. By racing with the best drivers in an equal car is the only way he will either be as competitive in which case he will get the respect he deserves else he will be outshined in which case some peoples view will be correct that he isnt worthy of being a 4 time world champion.

[RedRobin]

The problem is people dont really rate Vettels skills to be on par with previous 3 or 4 time world champions. We need to find out how good Vettel really is, the only way that is going to happen is if he races the likes of Alonso or Hamilton with the same car but lets face it he/Red Bull have not let that happen because it would most likely upset the balance and impact what the team are currently achieving. By racing with the best drivers in an equal car is the only way he will either be as competitive in which case he will get the respect he deserves else he will be outshined in which case some peoples view will be correct that he isnt worthy of being a 4 time world champion.

....But you could apply that criteria to every world champion throughout F1 history. Since when have F1 race cars been equal?

The winner is the first to the chequered flag. His results speak for themselves. Simples.

[Makaveli]

The problem is people dont really rate Vettels skills to be on par with previous 3 or 4 time world champions. We need to find out how good Vettel really is, the only way that is going to happen is if he races the likes of Alonso or Hamilton with the same car but lets face it he/Red Bull have not let that happen because it would most likely upset the balance and impact what the team are currently achieving. By racing with the best drivers in an equal car is the only way he will either be as competitive in which case he will get the respect he deserves else he will be outshined in which case some peoples view will be correct that he isnt worthy of being a 4 time world champion.

....But you could apply that criteria to every world champion throughout F1 history. Since when have F1 race cars been equal?

The winner is the first to the chequered flag. His results speak for themselves. Simples.

I agree however it could be argued that technology these days plays a much bigger part than it has in previous eras

[RedRobin]

I agree however it could be argued that technology these days plays a much bigger part than it has in previous eras

....Yes and no.

Yes, there is far more 'technology' fitted to race cars.

No, nothing has changed regards the test of driver's skills. The skills may be different but the human component is as big as it always has been.

I think that F1 motorsport would be potentially very boring indeed if all the cars were literally identical. Also, it would contribute far less to the advance of various technologies.

[Makaveli]

I agree however it could be argued that technology these days plays a much bigger part than it has in previous eras

....Yes and no.

Yes, there is far more 'technology' fitted to race cars.

No, nothing has changed regards the test of driver's skills. The skills may be different but the human component is as big as it always has been.

I think that F1 motorsport would be potentially very boring indeed if all the cars were literally identical. Also, it would contribute far less to the advance of various technologies.

I dont agree, there are far more driver aids these days for example DRS and KERS. These all mean less driver skill is required to overtake, and they make it almost impossible for a driver to defend their position.

[RedRobin]

I agree however it could be argued that technology these days plays a much bigger part than it has in previous eras

....Yes and no.

Yes, there is far more 'technology' fitted to race cars.

No, nothing has changed regards the test of driver's skills. The skills may be different but the human component is as big as it always has been.

I think that F1 motorsport would be potentially very boring indeed if all the cars were literally identical. Also, it would contribute far less to the advance of various technologies.

I dont agree, there are far more driver aids these days for example DRS and KERS. These all mean less driver skill is required to overtake, and they make it almost impossible for a driver to defend their position.

....But there is mental rather than physical skill required in using DRS and KERS. There is far more going on for a modern F1 driver to mentally process and translate into his driving.

Why is there any less skill in overtaking due to DRS and KERS? It's exactly the same mental process and manouevre requiring the same skills in assessing position, distance, and timing. All that's different is the car's technology. Getting a car to be first to the chequered flag or to beat your rivals requires strategy as it always has done.

If anything, it now requires a broader skill set than it ever has done.

[RedRobin]

.
By the way, someone needs get up to speed and revise this thread's title as it's no longer 2012!

[Janner_Sy]

If anything, it now requires a broader skill set than it ever has done.

Id agree with that, and all the ex drivers say the same thing.

[Makaveli]

I agree however it could be argued that technology these days plays a much bigger part than it has in previous eras

....Yes and no.

Yes, there is far more 'technology' fitted to race cars.

No, nothing has changed regards the test of driver's skills. The skills may be different but the human component is as big as it always has been.

I think that F1 motorsport would be potentially very boring indeed if all the cars were literally identical. Also, it would contribute far less to the advance of various technologies.

I dont agree, there are far more driver aids these days for example DRS and KERS. These all mean less driver skill is required to overtake, and they make it almost impossible for a driver to defend their position.

....But there is mental rather than physical skill required in using DRS and KERS. There is far more going on for a modern F1 driver to mentally process and translate into his driving.

Why is there any less skill in overtaking due to DRS and KERS? It's exactly the same mental process and manouevre requiring the same skills in assessing position, distance, and timing. All that's different is the car's technology. Getting a car to be first to the chequered flag or to beat your rivals requires strategy as it always has done.

If anything, it now requires a broader skill set than it ever has done.

My point was that DRS and KERS make overtaking alot easier and arguably remove alot of the risk involved with overtaking, for example if the car being overtaken has no DRS and the car overtaking uses DRS there is such a big speed difference it makes it almost impossible for the car being overtaken to defend. If Vettel just uses DRS to pass cars then he is not really proving he can overtake, the combination of having the best car together with these driver aids just makes things too easy. You may say that everyone has the same or similar tools when it comes to DRS and KERS which is correct but in my opinion if you took away DRS and KERS and the cars stayed the same Vettel wouldnt be winning by such a big margin, the reason I say that is because I dont believe he is as good an overtaker as Alonso or Hamilton and therefore if he didnt have DRS he couldnt effortlessly pass cars in front of him no matter the skill level of the driver he is passing he would have to try alot harder and I believe he would find it alot more difficult to pass cars. Im not syaing he wouldnt win but I believe he would find it more difficult.

[Wardy91-ed30]

I know what your saying makaveli, and agree on some points. But vettel very rarely uses drs as he's never anything but 1st. And you can only use it unless your 1second or less behind the other car. So in a way, you have to have earnt that time difference to get a shot at that. Tbh I don't mind drs and kers. But I'm only 22 and have only properly got into f1 over the last 5years, so I can understand some of the "older" lads missing the days of the 80s and 90s. But I didn't really witness it first hand so I'm loving f1 nowadays for the way it is.

[Makaveli]

I know what your saying makaveli, and agree on some points. But vettel very rarely uses drs as he's never anything but 1st. And you can only use it unless your 1second or less behind the other car. So in a way, you have to have earnt that time difference to get a shot at that. Tbh I don't mind drs and kers. But I'm only 22 and have only properly got into f1 over the last 5years, so I can understand some of the "older" lads missing the days of the 80s and 90s. But I didn't really witness it first hand so I'm loving f1 nowadays for the way it is.

Its not when Vettel is out in front that DRS is giving him the major benefit its when he pits and comes out behind cars at which point they are not obliged to let him past as he is effectively racing them, I just feel he would be held up alot longer behind these cars if he didnt have DRS. Im not denying that he would get past them at some point as its likely he would be on fresher tyres but it would take him longer which is when the likes of Alonso and Hamilton would potentially be able to make up ground as I believe they are better at creating and taking opportunities to pass drivers when in the same situation.

[Wardy91-ed30]

Its not when Vettel is out in front that DRS is giving him the major benefit its when he pits and comes out behind cars at which point they are not obliged to let him past as he is effectively racing them, I just feel he would be held up alot longer behind these cars if he didnt have DRS. Im not denying that he would get past them at some point as its likely he would be on fresher tyres but it would take him longer which is when the likes of Alonso and Hamilton would potentially be able to make up ground as I believe they are better at creating and taking opportunities to pass drivers when in the same situation.
[/quote]

I can't remember the last time vettel came out the pits and used drs to overtake anyone tbh lol. But I know what your saying. And Alonso and Hamilton are defo better at making it through the pack, webers good at that too, not surprising if he's got the same car as vettel tho. I'm enjoying the battle behind vettel this season, with Hamilton, raikonen, Alonso, really close. But also enjoying watching people like hulk, grosjean and Rosberg all doing well.