VW's Mk5 Decisions

[Tortaruga]

I've been thinking (for once!).

VW put a KO3 in the standard GTI to give 197hp. For the Ed30 & Pirelli they upgraded to a KO4 to produce 230hp.

Now VW obviously did plenty of r&d and testing so you have to ask why did they put a larger, more expensive turbo into the special editions? As well as upgrade other internals to handle the extra power, all adding to the cost (yet they didn't upgrade the brakes!)? I'm asking this because many of us have mapped the KO3 to 240hp or so with a stage 1. Surely VW must have looked at this as they could then have produced the Ed30/Pirelli for much less, but still charged a premium. VW must have tested and realised that going to 230hp on the standard GTI was too much and compromised the car somehow.
I would hazard a guess that the average punter who bought a new Ed30 or Pirelli didn't have a clue that there was a different turbo, etc. They bought it for looks, exclusivity and the extra bit of poke over the standard GTI; extra poke that can easily be obtained by a changed map as we (and VW) know. Yet VW's engineers didn't do this and I would surmise that VW's engineers know a little bit more about their engines than most aftermarket tuners. I wonder if Bosch wouldn't agree to a different map? (I'm sure that's rubbish-correct me if I'm wrong).

I suppose I'm trying to understand what the compromises were that made VW upgrade the turbo for a relatively modest power increase and whether all our remapped KO3's are going to have problems in future.

[mesaosi]

I've been thinking (for once!).

VW put a KO3 in the standard GTI to give 197hp. For the Ed30 & Pirelli they upgraded to a KO4 to produce 230hp.

Now VW obviously did plenty of r&d and testing so you have to ask why did they put a larger, more expensive turbo into the special editions? As well as upgrade other internals to handle the extra power, all adding to the cost (yet they didn't upgrade the brakes!)? I'm asking this because many of us have mapped the KO3 to 240hp or so with a stage 1. Surely VW must have looked at this as they could then have produced the Ed30/Pirelli for much less, but still charged a premium. VW must have tested and realised that going to 230hp on the standard GTI was too much and compromised the car somehow.
I would hazard a guess that the average punter who bought a new Ed30 or Pirelli didn't have a clue that there was a different turbo, etc. They bought it for looks, exclusivity and the extra bit of poke over the standard GTI; extra poke that can easily be obtained by a changed map as we (and VW) know. Yet VW's engineers didn't do this and I would surmise that VW's engineers know a little bit more about their engines than most aftermarket tuners. I wonder if Bosch wouldn't agree to a different map? (I'm sure that's rubbish-correct me if I'm wrong).

I suppose I'm trying to understand what the compromises were that made VW upgrade the turbo for a relatively modest power increase and whether all our remapped KO3's are going to have problems in future.

When car manufacturers design an engine, they have to design it to cater to multiple markets with their different climates, fuel quality, emissions regulations etc and to be as reliable as possible for the "dumb" motorist not to have to worry about it beyond the standard service intervals. That design is, by design  , as generic as it gets, and therefore nowhere near it's potential if it was tweaked to best match the factors surrounding the driver, which is what a remap does.

[Beddie]

The decision will have been ultimately made by the VAG bean counters based on cost and production reasons...
The special editions needed more poke...they already had a proven motor with more poke in the guise of the S3 k04 lump, no further R&D / type testing costs etc and easily detuned to fit the application required, simples  

[Saintsteve]

For normal driving, these cars brakes Are adequate.If you drive like a hoon, and drive too enthusiastically, then the brakes will eventually start to faid.

For track use. Then all VW's calculations will not be taken into account as these cars are designed to driven on the public highway.

VW in my mind got it spot on, and still continue to use these brakes on the mk6. So I'm sure after 8 years of usage that if these were not safe, then they would of beefed them up long ago.

Imo

[maxload]

Come on Steve get some BIG brakes , you know it makes sense :O

[Tortaruga]

The decision will have been ultimately made by the VAG bean counters based on cost

But that's my point. Surely the bean counters would've wanted to just remap the ECU to 230hp. Much cheaper than doing what they did!

[Saintsteve]

Come on Steve get some BIG brakes , you know it makes sense :O

as much as I like a good "snatch" I prefer to keep that away from my car  

 

[E30Dom]

For normal driving, these cars brakes Are adequate.If you drive like a hoon, and drive too enthusiastically, then the brakes will eventually start to faid.

For track use. Then all VW's calculations will not be taken into account as these cars are designed to driven on the public highway.

VW in my mind got it spot on, and still continue to use these brakes on the mk6. So I'm sure after 8 years of usage that if these were not safe, then they would of beefed them up long ago.

Imo

The standard GTi brakes are shocking... even coming from a Mk5 R32 which is heavier, the brakes are loads better... the Ed30 should have had these as standard and look forward to seeing what the Scirocco R brakes are like once fitted...

Plus they limited the ed30 to 230bhp cos they put the cheapskate GTi's intercooler in for a start...

[andrewparker]

Speed doesn't necessitate bigger brakes, weight does. Therefore if VW felt the standard GTI brakes were sufficient (and I'd say they are for normal driving) and the Edition 30 weighs no more, then why would they upgrade them?

[E30Dom]

Speed doesn't necessitate bigger brakes, weight does. Therefore if VW felt the standard GTI brakes were sufficient (and I'd say they are for normal driving) and the Edition 30 weighs no more, then why would they upgrade them?

So if travelling faster you don't need bigger brakes to stop quicker in the same distance as a car travelling slower with the same brakes?

[andrewparker]

The standard GTi brakes are shocking...

In what circumstances?

[E30Dom]

The standard GTi brakes are shocking...

In what circumstances?

When you put your foot on the brake pedal...

[andrewparker]

Speed doesn't necessitate bigger brakes, weight does. Therefore if VW felt the standard GTI brakes were sufficient (and I'd say they are for normal driving) and the Edition 30 weighs no more, then why would they upgrade them?

So if travelling faster you don't need bigger brakes to stop quicker in the same distance as a car travelling slower with the same brakes?

People seem to think that because the Edition 30 is marginally faster it deserves better brakes. They gave the R32 bigger brakes because it weighs more, and therefore needs more braking power to stop.

[andrewparker]

The standard GTi brakes are shocking...

In what circumstances?

When you put your foot on the brake pedal...

If you're driving within the laws of this country then the brakes are perfectly ample.

It continually amazes me how people here think the GTI is some sort of hardcore performance car that needs massive brakes.

[Tfsi_Mike]

The standard GTi brakes are shocking...

In what circumstances?

When you put your foot on the brake pedal...