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Author Topic: Brakes  (Read 8518 times)

Offline titchy

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2012, 09:57:30 am »
brake pads are only visually checked on an mot they are not allowed to remove anything to check so as far as they are concerned the make doesnt matter, its the brake efficiency that counts. what a farce the mot is dont check something as basic as tyre pressures
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2012, 10:01:52 am »
Quote from: titchy on July 21, 2012, 09:57:30 am

brake pads are only visually checked on an mot they are not allowed to remove anything to check so as far as they are concerned the make doesnt matter, its the brake efficiency that counts. what a farce the mot is dont check something as basic as tyre pressures


.... :happy2:

And are DS2500's considered to give inefficient braking? - I'm trying to understand DS2500's apparently being 'illegal'.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 10:03:29 am by RedRobin »
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Offline Tortaruga

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2012, 10:06:57 am »
Quote from: RedRobin on July 21, 2012, 09:52:07 am
Why would the DS2500's be illegal anyway? - They aren't inadequate at braking a car.

I found this on another forum:

ECE Regulation 90 (R90)
European legislation came into effect September 1999 titled ECE R90 that stipulates that all brake pads sold for use on vehicles manufactured after this date must be tested and comply to R90 standards.

This test which involves taking each homologated vehicle used on the public roads within Europe and comparing the front and rear brake performance with the original parts to those of aftermarket offerings. The test includes cold and hot brake friction analysis, and if a part has been approved to R90, it can be safely assumed that the product is equal to or better than original equipment product. The brake pads are then marked with an R90 code number and a country code in a circle such as E1 for Germany or E11 for UK which signifies where the testing has been done. 

Factory approval is part of the R90 process which involves engineers inspecting and accrediting the factory manufacturing the product before approval is given.

Ferodo technical actually told me today the following;

""The use of Ferodo DS 2500 pads on ANY car ( apart from a certain Aston Martin, whose use of this pad got homologation, due to the stopping power required and so therefore became the OE part! ) is totally illegal for road use and apparently there was a famous case not so so long ago where Devonshire Police asked Ferodo to identify the pads fitted in a highly tuned Corsa involved in a RTA where a woman died. The driver of the Corsa was prosecuted for using these pads !""
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Offline DaveB@Vagbremtechnic

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2012, 10:08:11 am »
EBC pads reg90 approval is from China......
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2012, 10:15:41 am »
^^^^
Cheers for that info  :drinking:

That info suggests that DS2500's give inadequate braking performance. Yet the difference in braking power between OEM front brakes and AP's with DS2500's when those pads were fitted on mine was like night and day!

The legal aspect must be the true reason why AP Racing have stopped supplying DS2500's in their kits and now have their own pads.
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Offline Beddie

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2012, 10:27:42 am »
Quote from: RedRobin on July 21, 2012, 10:01:52 am

And are DS2500's considered to give inefficient braking? - I'm trying to understand DS2500's apparently being 'illegal'.

It's quite the contrary in fact Robin  :happy2:

For a brake pad to be considered road legal it has to gain 'Reg90' approval and meet within tolerance a specification set out to meet the minimum performance requirements of the oem pads, this helps to both regulate the industry and also provide the consumer with some protection as to the provenence of any replacement pads they fit to an oem application..

Where the non road legality of 'performance' pads such as the DS2500 etc comes in is that the Reg90 specs demand that any pad must meet the specification within a maximum tolerance of 15%, however this tolerance also extends to 15% above the baseline so any pad that performs 15% or greater is considered outside Reg90 and therefore not 'road legal'

Another factor is the prohibitively high cost of gaining Reg90 approval which means that some manufacturers simply don't bother testing low volume pad compounds...

 :smiley:
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Offline Tortaruga

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2012, 10:40:01 am »
That's interesting about the overperformance bit. If the Devonshire Police story is true then anyone running track pads on the road will have to change them.

I wonder if you were in the dock having caused a crash, but having had better than OEM pads would a judge rule against you? I'm not a lawyer, but I could see how it would be upsetting to be prosecuted for exceeding standards?
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2012, 10:42:08 am »
^^^^
Interesting  :happy2:

It does seem ridiculous to me to limit the above-the-baseline tolerance such that a pad can be deemed as illegal because it performs braking more strongly. I thought that better/stronger braking power was beneficial to safety! And shouldn't safety on the road be the absolutely primary consideration?

It does have to be said that when having awesome braking power it becomes very important to assume that any vehicle behind you doesn't have that braking capability and so you must drive accordingly.
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2012, 10:46:53 am »
Quote from: Tortaruga on July 21, 2012, 10:40:01 am

I wonder if you were in the dock having caused a crash, but having had better than OEM pads would a judge rule against you? I'm not a lawyer, but I could see how it would be upsetting to be prosecuted for exceeding standards?


....I think it's reasonable to say that many performance mods, not just brakes, exceed OEM standards.

I can see a day coming sometime in the future when it is made illegal to modify any road car in any way whatsoever - Yuk!! I hope I will have retired from the joy of driving before that day comes.
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Offline rich83

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2012, 11:53:29 am »
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Offline Beddie

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2012, 12:37:45 pm »
Quote from: richwig83 on July 21, 2012, 11:53:29 am
Are m1144  Reg90 Steve?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MINTEX-FRONT-RACING-BRAKE-PADS-VW-GOLF-MK5-R32-4MOTION-3-2-05-07-MDB2677M1144-/370546118993?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5646451151#ht_4387wt_1165

Sadly not mate, but they do come with a snazzy 'not for road use' sticker to make you feel like a braking rebel  :happy2:

I'd also be highly sceptical of the stock availability of that particular eBay seller, stock of the 2677 pad in M1144 is severely limited and even though camskill show stock them admit they would only order direct from Mintex Uk (questmead) who themselves have no stock at present (up until last month anyways)
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Offline DFish

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2012, 02:01:33 pm »
Red, it might end up like California then. Only checked modifications are street legal. So it is already happening out there.

Fish
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Offline chungster

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2012, 02:02:56 pm »
It's a load of PC Mumbo jumbo really.

The reg came into effect in Sept 99. How many kits have AP sold since then that came with DS2500 pads???

Also looking at the rules I think it only applies to cars still using OEM caliper set up - not if you have fitted an after market set up!

Kit I bought was supplied brand new to its buyer in 2010 with DS2500 pads. If they did this with reg90 being in place since 1999 then surely they are ok??  :stupid:

Or does that mean fitting AP kits are actually "illegal" On a road car??

Found this http://www.apracing.com/drawings/Individual%20Product%20Sections/2012_Brake%20Pads.pdf

Looks like AP say the DS2500 Is ok for road use like the APF404 pad they've released



« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 02:15:19 pm by chungster »
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Offline E30Dom

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2012, 02:08:48 pm »
Which is why i asked if ok to use on scirocco calipers on an edition 30... They are oem, but considered a bbk to the edition 30...
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Offline chungster

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Re: Brakes
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2012, 02:22:39 pm »
Classic post from 2007 by Badger5 Bill Brockbank on SCN!


I have posted on this several times before.. searchy will find it.
Yes DS2500's are performance pads, classed as Race on the box.
Reg90 is a bullsh*t reg from EU, meant to stop poor performing pads from being sold as equivalents to OE spec... which makes sense. What they did was apply a 15% of OE fircition coefficient, but then cocked it up by not just making it within 15% of OE on the negative side, but made it +/-15% of OE. this then makes "BETTER" performing pads outside of reg 90 because they perform better.

functionally they work far better than stock, and this is why so many people want to run them.
If you were concerned about the pad in the event of a serious (fatal) road crash, then I can imagine the scenario of the car being taken to bits to determin the cause. Too good a brake pad would'nt likely be one of them, nor identifying every component on the car against every standard around. the only identifyer on the pads is the printing on the back of the pads, which is only printed on.... and can wear off.  with nothing printed or legible on the pad, determining the make, let alone the model & spec would seem impossible. Crash test investigation would confirm they were "working" and had sufficient pad material.

you can hypothosise as much as you like as to "what if", and would'nt likely ever leave the house as a consequence.

Reality is the pads perform superbly, stop far better than OE, which when Oe fade in hard use, and DS2500's dont, then the DS2500's would be the safer pads to run.

MOT brake testing takes no account of brake materials fitted to the cars, only that they work sufficiently well, which is the important aspect obviously.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 03:54:31 pm by chungster »
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