Hpfp upgrade

[DaveB@Vagbremtechnic]

At (an assumed) £50 per pump that's 60,000 pumps even for a global company like APR that's a lot of pumps and a lot of testing I'm assuming you're batch testing and not testing every pump in which case what's the batch rate? In which case every pump doesn't get tested
60,000 pumps taking 45 minutes per pump is 45,000 hours and the average American doing 40 hours per week with 4 weeks leave that's 25 guys in a room assembling pumps all day......that's with no lunch...

I see where you are coming from but I dont see where APR have said that they have recovered costs on this $3mil test rig, so assuming they have and stating that would require 60,000 pumps is irrelevant.  

They might well have only sold 10,000 pumps, 5000 pumps or even 1000 pumps who knows which renders that theory null and void.  Theres alot of assumptions being made there, they might not even be close to recovering that cost, plus if they are only selling minor quantities then testing of each could be possible, but i dont know, thats just an assumption as well  

Si

I'm fully expecting to apologise  and yes loads of assumptions made I'm not privvy to the internal workings of APR.

But a 5 Million USD (Not 3million USD) piece of test equipment is a MAJOR investment for BP never mind a succesful LLC from Alibama. I would foresee that if the test kit is that price then I would suggest that its the people that Machine for APR's machine and not APR themselves......

But from a sales and marketing point of view that's NOWHERE near as sexy sounding as how it reads above.

Again the APR pumps good and if the Loba pump is as good they've still got a lot of catching up to do by no other virtue of the fact that the APR item is well established.

Its just sometimes the Bullsh*tometer hits the opposite needle and here we are discussing that rather than the many happy pump customers APR have globally.....

I don't want to fall out with anybody....but let's not profess to be transparent whilst p1ssing in my pocket and telling me its raining

[GNJ_Motorsport]

At (an assumed) £50 per pump that's 60,000 pumps even for a global company like APR that's a lot of pumps and a lot of testing I'm assuming you're batch testing and not testing every pump in which case what's the batch rate? In which case every pump doesn't get tested
60,000 pumps taking 45 minutes per pump is 45,000 hours and the average American doing 40 hours per week with 4 weeks leave that's 25 guys in a room assembling pumps all day......that's with no lunch...

I see where you are coming from but I dont see where APR have said that they have recovered costs on this $3mil test rig, so assuming they have and stating that would require 60,000 pumps is irrelevant.  

They might well have only sold 10,000 pumps, 5000 pumps or even 1000 pumps who knows which renders that theory null and void.  Theres alot of assumptions being made there, they might not even be close to recovering that cost, plus if they are only selling minor quantities then testing of each could be possible, but i dont know, thats just an assumption as well  

Si

I'm fully expecting to apologise  and yes loads of assumptions made I'm not privvy to the internal workings of APR.

But a 5 Million USD (Not 3million USD) piece of test equipment is a MAJOR investment for BP never mind a succesful LLC from Alibama. I would foresee that if the test kit is that price then I would suggest that its the people that Machine for APR's machine and not APR themselves......

But from a sales and marketing point of view that's NOWHERE near as sexy sounding as how it reads above.

Again the APR pumps good and if the Loba pump is as good they've still got a lot of catching up to do by no other virtue of the fact that the APR item is well established.

Its just sometimes the Bullsh*tometer hits the opposite needle and here we are discussing that rather than the many happy pump customers APR have globally.....

I don't want to fall out with anybody....but let's not profess to be transparent whilst p1ssing in my pocket and telling me its raining

 

Agree with all that, very well put.

[RedRobin]

I'm sorry but your really starting to get on my tits!

....Really? Simply because I have shared my opinions in this discussion?

Why would a company who have a product, thought about it them selfs (in terms of the bits they wanted to add or upgrade), done research built the thing etc then come on here and reply to your question of how its different to exact detail spec and items upgraded and replaced.... ?

....Have you read the posts in this thread in which others apart from myself have voiced their disappointment in Loba's attitude about saying nothing about their product?

Why should they answer such questions? - Simply because potential customers ask such questions and the answers will influence their choice of purchase.

You seriously have no business brain.

....Really? Then I wonder how on earth I managed to successfully run my own limited company business based in Chelsea, London for over 25 years and with blue-chip company clients and international projects.

Apr are flavour of the month this time next year someone else will be flavour.

I'm not a huge purchaser of LOBA items i have recently bought the clutch and flywheel and the delivery, service and after care has been amazing, emails are replied to within mins at all times of the day from Simon, my next purchase from them will be a pump based purely on the service and the quality of the items i have previously bought not because everyone "Says" they are amazing.

....I respect that you personally have had extremely satisfactory service from Loba and also your contribution to this discussion in sharing your good experiences. I am not questioning that aspect.

In marketing a product, any organisation with a good "business brain" (as you describe it) understands that their product's sales success will be due partly to how it can be DIFFERENTIATED from its competitor's similar products. Now do you understand or do you still have itchy tits?

[Keith@APR]

Full marks on engaging the debate Keith

Out of professional courtesy Im going to be extremely polite on the matter of the 3 Million GBP machine Keith

Name and model number of the machine please

...I was at one of the most accomplished Machine shops in the North West of England this afternoon supplying Rolls Royce Derby/F1 teams/MESM (an experimental clinical trials company) and running MAZAK 5 axis machines straight out of Japan and there's lots and lots of very raised eyebrows at that figure.

At (an assumed) £50 per pump that's 60,000 pumps even for a global company like APR that's a lot of pumps and a lot of testing I'm assuming you're batch testing and not testing every pump in which case what's the batch rate? In which case every pump doesn't get tested

60,000 pumps taking 45 minutes per pump is 45,000 hours and the average American doing 40 hours per week with 4 weeks leave that's 25 guys in a room assembling pumps all day......that's with no lunch...

in the interests of the aforementioned transparency can we have a little more info on the machine please, I'll happily eat humble pie and apologise publicly for being a doubting Thomas.

Or are they assembled off shore?

the product obviously works......very well....and APR should be applauded for turning out a good bit of kit, I'm hoping that the Sales and Marketing machine standard replies don't overshadow the product

I'm sorry.  I think you are confused.  We don't have that machine and its at a company that does the measurements for us.  We looked at buying the machine ourselves and yeah, we were quoted $5mil.  Its not a CNC machine, its a measurement machine used by the medical manufacturing industry.

Hope this helps.

[Keith@APR]

Appreciate the reply Keith, even if I think a lot of that came from the US book of sales jargon. Nobody has questioned the APR pumps quality, I don't think there is any doubting that at all.

I have actually run the Autotech before as well and I had no issues at all but I appreciate that going down that route has its obvious pitfalls. That is why we are really looking forward to testing the LOBA pump ourselves, on our £320k 2005 Volkswagen Golf  (Joking)

Definition of JARGON

1
a : confused unintelligible language
b : a strange, outlandish, or barbarous language or dialect
c : a hybrid language or dialect simplified in vocabulary and grammar and used for communication between peoples of different speech
2
: the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of a special activity or group
3
: obscure and often pretentious language marked by circumlocutions and long words

Jargon you say?  Reread my post and I can't find any. 

[Keith@APR]

Full marks on engaging the debate Keith

Out of professional courtesy Im going to be extremely polite on the matter of the 3 Million GBP machine Keith

Name and model number of the machine please

...I was at one of the most accomplished Machine shops in the North West of England this afternoon supplying Rolls Royce Derby/F1 teams/MESM (an experimental clinical trials company) and running MAZAK 5 axis machines straight out of Japan and there's lots and lots of very raised eyebrows at that figure.

At (an assumed) £50 per pump that's 60,000 pumps even for a global company like APR that's a lot of pumps and a lot of testing I'm assuming you're batch testing and not testing every pump in which case what's the batch rate? In which case every pump doesn't get tested

60,000 pumps taking 45 minutes per pump is 45,000 hours and the average American doing 40 hours per week with 4 weeks leave that's 25 guys in a room assembling pumps all day......that's with no lunch...

in the interests of the aforementioned transparency can we have a little more info on the machine please, I'll happily eat humble pie and apologise publicly for being a doubting Thomas.

Or are they assembled off shore?

the product obviously works......very well....and APR should be applauded for turning out a good bit of kit, I'm hoping that the Sales and Marketing machine standard replies don't overshadow the product

This is brilliant...

well and trully caught out APR.

Not at all I'm afraid.  I think people need to read more closely to what is actually said before making accusations, no?

[GNJ_Motorsport]

Appreciate the reply Keith, even if I think a lot of that came from the US book of sales jargon. Nobody has questioned the APR pumps quality, I don't think there is any doubting that at all.

I have actually run the Autotech before as well and I had no issues at all but I appreciate that going down that route has its obvious pitfalls. That is why we are really looking forward to testing the LOBA pump ourselves, on our £320k 2005 Volkswagen Golf  (Joking)

Definition of JARGON

1
a : confused unintelligible language
b : a strange, outlandish, or barbarous language or dialect
c : a hybrid language or dialect simplified in vocabulary and grammar and used for communication between peoples of different speech
2
: the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of a special activity or group
3
: obscure and often pretentious language marked by circumlocutions and long words

Jargon you say?  Reread my post and I can't find any. 

Very clever 

You know precisely what I meant.

I'm not going to argue with you, I refuse. APR has nothing to do with my business and never will but LOBA does so it is only natural I will back Si up when he is being hammered for not posting info LOBA have decided not to share.

Like I have said previously, as harsh as it sounds, if people don't like LOBA's stance on the pump then don't buy it. The proof for the LOBA pump will come over time when hundreds of people use them without issue.

[Keith@APR]

Appreciate the reply Keith, even if I think a lot of that came from the US book of sales jargon. Nobody has questioned the APR pumps quality, I don't think there is any doubting that at all.

I have actually run the Autotech before as well and I had no issues at all but I appreciate that going down that route has its obvious pitfalls. That is why we are really looking forward to testing the LOBA pump ourselves, on our £320k 2005 Volkswagen Golf   (Joking)

Definition of JARGON

1
a : confused unintelligible language
b : a strange, outlandish, or barbarous language or dialect
c : a hybrid language or dialect simplified in vocabulary and grammar and used for communication between peoples of different speech
2
: the technical terminology or characteristic idiom of a special activity or group
3
: obscure and often pretentious language marked by circumlocutions and long words

Jargon you say?  Reread my post and I can't find any.  

Very clever  

You know precisely what I meant.

I'm not going to argue with you, I refuse. APR has nothing to do with my business and never will but LOBA does so it is only natural I will back Si up when he is being hammered for not posting info LOBA have decided not to share.

Like I have said previously, as harsh as it sounds, if people don't like LOBA's stance on the pump then don't buy it. The proof for the LOBA pump will come over time when hundreds of people use them without issue.

I hope you don't think I am trying to argue with you.  I am making fun of the situation like you were. :)

Seriously though, I really don't see any sales or marketing spin in my post.  Everything I've written is from an engineering perspective of what we have found to work and explains to people how to determine for themselves if the pump they are looking at buying has all of the features and benefits of ours.

[Janner_Sy]

I'm not going to argue with you, I refuse. APR has nothing to do with my business and never will but LOBA does so it is only natural I will back Si up when he is being hammered for not posting info LOBA have decided not to share.

Like I have said previously, as harsh as it sounds, if people don't like LOBA's stance on the pump then don't buy it. The proof for the LOBA pump will come over time when hundreds of people use them without issue.

Which basically says that everything you post is therefore biased and also sales jargon then 

[RedRobin]

Seriously though, I really don't see any sales or marketing spin in my post.  Everything I've written is from an engineering perspective of what we have found to work and explains to people how to determine for themselves if the pump they are looking at buying has all of the features and benefits of ours.

....And I found it very informative and useful technical information - It gives me even more confidence in my APR HPFP, as does your web page about the pump:

http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html

If this was 6 months ago and the Loba pump had become available then I would have been extremely disappointed in Loba's lack of published information to help me make a choice and it would have put me off buying theirs.

This isn't a case of one pump being 'better' than another but being able to make an informed choice to decide which to buy. Which is doubtless what everyone considering to buy an aftermarket HPFP would value.

I take notice of brand reputations but I don't have any brand loyalties (apart from Milltek) - I just want what's best for my beloved car. Don't we all?

[Sonic6103]

Seriously though, I really don't see any sales or marketing spin in my post.  Everything I've written is from an engineering perspective of what we have found to work and explains to people how to determine for themselves if the pump they are looking at buying has all of the features and benefits of ours.

....And I found it very informative and useful technical information - It gives me even more confidence in my APR HPFP, as does your web page about the pump:

http://www.goapr.co.uk/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html

If this was 6 months ago and the Loba pump had become available then I would have been extremely disappointed in Loba's lack of published information to help me make a choice and it would have put me off buying theirs.

This isn't a case of one pump being 'better' than another but being able to make an informed choice to decide which to buy. Which is doubtless what everyone considering to buy an aftermarket HPFP would value.

I take notice of brand reputations but I don't have any brand loyalties (apart from Milltek) - I just want what's best for my beloved car. Don't we all?

I have to agree with you RR. I just wanted some information that will help me make an informed decision which APR seem more than happy to do so but LOBA won't :s

Like people have said... Other pump manufacturers could go and buy a LOBA pump and then strip it down and find out lots of information so it's never going to stay a secret so I don't know why LOBA can't give these bits of information now.

I'm more than happy to go and buy a LOBA pump if I was given more information than a cheap price.

[Keith@APR]

Here is what the piston and barrel look like when they arrive at our facility.  Each one is a matched set with the tolerances listed on the packaging.  We blurred that out for this pic though as we don't want others to know what tolerances we accomplish.  However, we do have plans to release this info in the future.

[GNJ_Motorsport]

I'm not going to argue with you, I refuse. APR has nothing to do with my business and never will but LOBA does so it is only natural I will back Si up when he is being hammered for not posting info LOBA have decided not to share.

Like I have said previously, as harsh as it sounds, if people don't like LOBA's stance on the pump then don't buy it. The proof for the LOBA pump will come over time when hundreds of people use them without issue.

Which basically says that everything you post is therefore biased and also sales jargon then 

  I own a Mk5 GTI

I'm not getting any more into it. I just commented to back up Simon and LOBA as I am a big fan of their work. Simple as that. We could bicker until the cows come home, it won't get any of us anywhere so I won't comment again 

[Hurdy]

This started off as a good thread, but has finally descended into the usual XXX v's YYY.

Full disclosure is not in the interest of any company. A company will always seek to protect its interests and keep its investments safe, whether informational or product specifications or processes. It is how they survive in a competitive market.
You may as well ask them to put a gun to their own heads, their products will hopefully have a USP ( unique selling point ) that ( as RedRobin pointed out) will differentiate their product to give them an edge against the competition.

All good companies will have a policy that will prevent their employees from disclosing anything that a competitor could take advantage of and that is all that these guys on here are doing......protecting their companies interests.

So fellow forumites please don't continue with your attempts at extracting information of a sensitive nature from professionals that are bound by their companies policies as it will end up like this thread......full of keyboard frippery.


frip·per·y 
/ˈfripərē/
Noun
Showy or unnecessary ornament in architecture, dress, or language.
A tawdry or frivolous thing.

Thank you everyone and in the words of the Dragon's Den

I'm out!. 

[chungster]

Well as a potential HPFP buyer I have to say I'm currently wayyyy more inclined to go with the APR HPFP than anything else.