forge twintake air intake available end Aug 09

[jonnyc]

I drive  my car not take it apart 

 

[SteveP]

I have logged my ITG intake so will post the details in the ITG thread to save this one going any more off topic 

[KRL]

I don't have VAGCOM, so I will need to hook up with someone in the West Berkshire / South Oxfordshire area once I get back from holiday. I've only just got here o wont be back in the UK for a while. Apologies.

How dare you be on holiday when the modding community needs you 

Have a good holiday buddy hope you enjoy it 

[KRL]

I have logged my ITG intake so will post the details in the ITG thread to save this one going any more off topic 

Top man Steve I shall come and have a look...

[Keith@APR]

I know that APR use the standard OEM calibration for the MAF 

Hello everyone!  I'm sure this is what KRL meant but I'll clarify his post regarding APR calibrations and maf diameters and try to provide some additional info.

APR calibrates our Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 2+ and ED30 Conversion ECU Upgrades within the OEM maf diameter (the physical maf housing) and by maintaining the original sizing parameters and scaling of the calibration surfaces in the ecu (the software attributes of the maf).

The ecu has over 2400 load and rpm dependent maps that depend upon readings from the maf in some way, shape or form.  These readings are assumed to have been collected from a car with an identical cross sectional area as the oem maf.  If the cross sectional area of the maf housing has changed, the ecu won't know it unless re-calibrated properly and all of these interconnected and interdependent maps will be miscalculated causing a slew of potential problems to include proper running, emissions control and power delivery.

Our Stage 3 ECU Calibrations incorporate new map scaling, algorithm adjustment, computational calculations, variable adjustment and over 78 additional ecu coding changes to accommodate for the new maf diameter.

What concerns us the most is when intake manufacturers don't properly recreate the cross sectional area, diameter, shape and inherent airflow characteristics of the oem maf housing in their product offerings.  We feel its best to either leave the oem maf housing alone, properly re-manufacture it for your intake or have the ability to control both ends of the spectrum, hardware and software development, so you can make a new maf and recalibrate the ecu to operate correctly with it.

The problem most of you guys face is that you have companies that make intakes and companies that make software.  These companies can't do both and aren't working together nor would you want them to.

Sure, you can buy an APR/Carbonio intake and APR software and know that they will always work perfectly together but why would you want to buy Neuspeed's intake and APR software made to work with Neuspeed's intake?

What I really think needs to happen for the betterment of all is for intake manufacturers to simply step up to the plate and use manufacturing processes that are capable of reproducing all of the inherent properties of the oem maf or to not change the maf with their intake offering.

[Poppa Dom]

What I really think needs to happen for the betterment of all is for intake manufacturers to simply step up to the plate and use manufacturing processes that are capable of reproducing all of the inherent properties of the oem maf or to not change the maf with their intake offering.

Totally agree, would be a step forward.

[Poverty]

Adds some more info there keith, thanks.

What has striked me as odd though is the fact that APR seem to lack a proper cai for k04 based cars. I know on your BT kits you guys have your own specific cai's, but I would have though a company like apr who do software and hardware would have had a pukka cai out by now and not that carbonia stuff which seems to be form over function.

[jonnyc]

I agree with what you have said, but there are a load of cars out there, mine included running aftermarket intakes that make more power than the stock intake system, with no problems related to MAF scaling..

What I really think needs to happen for the betterment of all is for intake manufacturers to simply step up to the plate and use manufacturing processes that are capable of reproducing all of the inherent properties of the oem maf or to not change the maf with their intake offering.

So with that said, when will you be releasing your intake?  

[Keith@APR]

What I really think needs to happen for the betterment of all is for intake manufacturers to simply step up to the plate and use manufacturing processes that are capable of reproducing all of the inherent properties of the oem maf or to not change the maf with their intake offering.

Totally agree, would be a step forward.

If you've seen the issues regarding ko4 FSI's and aftermarket intakes you'll find this interesting:

We've been testing this issue for some time.  We've only ever offered an intake that replaces the front scoop of the oem intake and leaves the oem maf housing in tact.  Some people have been complaining of misfires at high rpm with ko4 upgrades to their ko3 2.0T FSI engines.  We've been spear heading the issue and have found that only people with ko4's and aftermarket intakes that replace the maf housing have experienced the high rpm misfire.  Our testing is showing that 3 things are contributing to the issue:

maf housing diameter being an unrepeatable tolerance.  We've tested 20 intakes across 5 manufacturers and not a single maf housing diameter was consistent amongst all 20!  That means even the ones made by the same company were different from each other!!  None were within 7% of the OEM diameter.

shape of the maf housing.  seems like it must be oval

turbulence generator.  alot of people think the screen in the maf housing on the FSI is to straighten the airflow, its for the exact opposite.

[KRL]

I know that APR use the standard OEM calibration for the MAF 

Hello everyone!  I'm sure this is what KRL meant but I'll clarify his post regarding APR calibrations and maf diameters and try to provide some additional info.

APR calibrates our Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 2+ and ED30 Conversion ECU Upgrades within the OEM maf diameter (the physical maf housing) and by maintaining the original sizing parameters and scaling of the calibration surfaces in the ecu (the software attributes of the maf).

The ecu has over 2400 load and rpm dependent maps that depend upon readings from the maf in some way, shape or form.  These readings are assumed to have been collected from a car with an identical cross sectional area as the oem maf.  If the cross sectional area of the maf housing has changed, the ecu won't know it unless re-calibrated properly and all of these interconnected and interdependent maps will be miscalculated causing a slew of potential problems to include proper running, emissions control and power delivery.

Our Stage 3 ECU Calibrations incorporate new map scaling, algorithm adjustment, computational calculations, variable adjustment and over 78 additional ecu coding changes to accommodate for the new maf diameter.

What concerns us the most is when intake manufacturers don't properly recreate the cross sectional area, diameter, shape and inherent airflow characteristics of the oem maf housing in their product offerings.  We feel its best to either leave the oem maf housing alone, properly re-manufacture it for your intake or have the ability to control both ends of the spectrum, hardware and software development, so you can make a new maf and recalibrate the ecu to operate correctly with it.

The problem most of you guys face is that you have companies that make intakes and companies that make software.  These companies can't do both and aren't working together nor would you want them to.

Sure, you can buy an APR/Carbonio intake and APR software and know that they will always work perfectly together but why would you want to buy Neuspeed's intake and APR software made to work with Neuspeed's intake?

What I really think needs to happen for the betterment of all is for intake manufacturers to simply step up to the plate and use manufacturing processes that are capable of reproducing all of the inherent properties of the oem maf or to not change the maf with their intake offering.

Thanks Keith 

That is what I meant just with more info 

[KRL]

I agree with what you have said, but there are a load of cars out there, mine included running aftermarket intakes that make more power than the stock intake system, with no problems related to MAF scaling..

Please could you show what your LTFTs were?

[Keith@APR]

Adds some more info there keith, thanks.

What has striked me as odd though is the fact that APR seem to lack a proper cai for k04 based cars. I know on your BT kits you guys have your own specific cai's, but I would have though a company like apr who do software and hardware would have had a pukka cai out by now and not that carbonia stuff which seems to be form over function.

Due to the expense and other issues with remanufacturing the maf housing we decided to offer a Stage 1 intake for the FSI that allows you to keep your oem maf housing.

We do make a solid 10-15bhp gain on the stock turbo with our current intake for the 2.0T FSI.  People have just chosen to assume it doesn't do anything because of how it looks and not by actually testing the results.  All tests that have been done have been very favorable.

HOWEVER!

We are releasing a new 2.0T FSI intake that is dual stage like our recently released intake for the 2.0 TSI:



Link: http://www.goapr.com/products/....html
Follow us on Facebook for more updates!

APR is pleased to present our Stage 2 Carbon Fiber Intake System to compliment our popular Carbon Fiber Intake for the 2.0 TSI and 2.0 TFSI engine.

Building upon the excellent gains in power delivery and linear improvement delivered by our Stage 1 Carbon Fiber Intake System that addresses the portion of the induction system ahead of the Mass Air Flow sensor, APR’s Stage 2 Carbon Fiber Intake System replaces the remaining portion of the OEM induction system from the rear of the MAF to the Turbocharger Inlet.

Constructed of aerospace grade carbon fiber and designed to remove intake restriction, APR’s Stage 2 provides smoother transitional airflow, increased air velocity, superior insulation of the incoming air to reduce intake air temperatures, laminar and turbulent airflow at key points to reduce negative incoming air pressure and a larger volume of available air to aid throttle response and turbocharger spool.

    * Increased Horsepower and Torque
    * Reduced Intake Air Temperatures
    * Increased Air Velocity
    * Smoother Transitional Airflow
    * Increased Throttle Response
    * Reduced Turbocharger Spool Time

Testing Video
http://www.goapr.com/media/vid...B794/

Testing Results



Product Images

Stage I


Stage II





Yes, we've been working on a properly sized, shaped and flow inducing maf housing replacement for the 2.0T FSI for a long time.  I feel it will be the best on the market as it will be the only one with a proper maf housing and will work for all ko3 and ko4 cars.

[Keith@APR]

I agree with what you have said, but there are a load of cars out there, mine included running aftermarket intakes that make more power than the stock intake system, with no problems related to MAF scaling..

True, true.  The ecu does have the ability to work around it but ask BPY and BWA guys that replace their ko3 with a ko4 how they work.  Alot of them are finding that regardless of whose intake as long as it replaces the maf housing and regardless of whose software, misfires at high load and high rpm occur.  The culprit has been determined to be improperly sized maf.

I'm not saying everyone will ever even notice running issues but as KLR suggested, you can see it in abnormal fuel trims.

What I really think needs to happen for the betterment of all is for intake manufacturers to simply step up to the plate and use manufacturing processes that are capable of reproducing all of the inherent properties of the oem maf or to not change the maf with their intake offering.

So with that said, when will you be releasing your intake?  

We have one in the works and we've been working on it for a long time.  Even if we didn't decide to finally invest the money into manufacturing a proper maf housing, we would still make people aware of the issues.  We have to deal with it with our ED30 conversions clients so we had to find out why they were misfiring.

[jonnyc]

I agree with what you have said, but there are a load of cars out there, mine included running aftermarket intakes that make more power than the stock intake system, with no problems related to MAF scaling..

True, true.  The ecu does have the ability to work around it but ask BPY and BWA guys that replace their ko3 with a ko4 how they work.  Alot of them are finding that regardless of whose intake as long as it replaces the maf housing and regardless of whose software, misfires at high load and high rpm occur.  The culprit has been determined to be improperly sized maf.

I'm not saying everyone will ever even notice running issues but as KLR suggested, you can see it in abnormal fuel trims.

What I really think needs to happen for the betterment of all is for intake manufacturers to simply step up to the plate and use manufacturing processes that are capable of reproducing all of the inherent properties of the oem maf or to not change the maf with their intake offering.

So with that said, when will you be releasing your intake?  

We have one in the works and we've been working on it for a long time.  Even if we didn't decide to finally invest the money into manufacturing a proper maf housing, we would still make people aware of the issues.  We have to deal with it with our ED30 conversions clients so we had to find out why they were misfiring.

Its interesting that its the K04 conversion guys that are suffering, what else is different? Seems strange that its more common in those situations..

[RedRobin]

....

Hi Keith@APR,

What isn't clear to me from your Reply #207, is whether you now offer an intake for the 2.0T FSI (not the later TSI as in your posted pics and links).

I've been running 'your' first Carbonio ram feeding the oem airbox with ITG flat panel filter on a Stage2 Revo without any problems, but I'm interested in upgrading.