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Author Topic: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions  (Read 83978 times)

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2009, 04:42:44 pm »
It is a known and accepted problem Steve.  It was recently featured in Audi Driver magazine.

Hmmmmm . . . I'm sorry, but I just don't trust Autometrex any more!
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Offline vRStu

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2009, 04:47:40 pm »
It is a known and accepted problem Steve.  It was recently featured in Audi Driver magazine.

Hmmmmm . . . I'm sorry, but I just don't trust Autometrex any more!

Lol, now you really are getting paranoid Sean.  :rolleye:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2009, 04:58:53 pm »

If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this will NOT be an issue!  :stupid:


....99.9% of us are using the better quality oil so that leaves the question of the air filter.

I wouldn't be so sure on the oil issue.  OK, here in the UK and Europe, we do have a massively higher compliance with the correct oil specs than over the pond.  However, not even all 504.00 oils are as good as others.  Just take the Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 - whilst it technically is approved to 504.00 - atcually contains a considerable amount of MINERAL oil (dispite what it says on the label).

Secondly, there are still far too many dealers using the 'wrong' oil.

Next, there are even more 'independents' using the wrong oil.  A local to me - supposedly highly regarded VAG inde refuses to use ANY LongLife oil, and insists on using Valvoline - which is American, and made from Group3 basestocks (ie, 'synthesised hydrocarbon fluids' or in laymans terms - mineral oils which have been fiddled with) - and not genuine synthetic base stocks.

And if you were to use 'any old independent', or even a chain such as AA or RAC - then you have no hope of getting the correct oil!


But I do appreciate your train of thought on the air filter.  :happy2:

So I'm now wondering if a Catch Can system is needed at all for those with oem and not aftermarket air filters.

I would categorically state if you have the oem filter, and use a high quality brand of the correct oil - then you do NOT need a catch can.


Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.

Exactly!  :happy2:


And Jonny's car is far from stock!

And that is the crucial point.  A very heaviliy modified engine is going to perform way beyond its normal operating boundaries.  And I've no doubt that Jonnys engine is running increadibly rich too.


^ Just thinking aloud and wondering.

And you have raised some excellent thoughts.  :smiley:
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2009, 05:01:38 pm »
It is a known and accepted problem Steve.  It was recently featured in Audi Driver magazine.

Hmmmmm . . . I'm sorry, but I just don't trust Autometrex any more!

Lol, now you really are getting paranoid Sean.  :rolleye:

Well, it WAS them who vhermently stated that the 'Ed30 engine was just a detuned S3 engine' - and look at the epic fail on that one!  :scared:
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Offline ukdub

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2009, 05:20:56 pm »



Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.


Pinched this from a post made by Bacillus

VW are fully aware of this issue!

Below is a direct quotation from the technical staff of VAG with complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.


"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits on components. Carbon deposits form especially in the neck region of intake valves. A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following result: Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components. These constituents are chiefly long-chain and branched-chain hydrocarbons, i.e., the low-volatility components of oil and fuel. Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil and fuel particles in turn become embedded. This process is a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases. Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation, and in this process, the blowby gasses and the recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve.

Especially in the area of the neck of the intake valves, excessive carbon deposits have extremely negative effects for the following reasons: In the case of Otto direct injectors, the successful ignition of the stratified charge depends to a great extent on the correct development of the internal cylinder flow, which ensures reliable transport of the injected fuel to the spark plug to guarantee reliable ignition at the spark plug. However, a coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may interfere so strongly with the tumble flow that ignition failures may occur there as a result. Under certain circumstances, however, ignition failures can lead to irreversible damage of a catalytic converter installed in the exhaust gas tract for purifying the exhaust gas. Furthermore, the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient cylinder filling, especially in the upper load and speed range of the internal combustion engine. In addition, the carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may prevent correct valve closing, which leads to compression losses and thus sporadic ignition failures. This in turn could irreversibly damage the catalytic converter. There is the potential for small particles to break away from the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve and get into the catalytic converter. These hot particles may then cause secondary reaction and corresponding local damage of the catalytic converter. For example, a hole may be burned in the structure of the catalytic converter.

Globular deposits are found especially on the valve stem downstream from a partition plate in the intake port. Due to the dripping of high-boiling hydrocarbons from the partition plate towards the valve neck or valve stem, globular carbon deposits eventually form there by the sequence of events explained above. These deposits on the valve stem can result in flow deficits due to undesired swirling and turbulent flow around the globular carbon deposits. This may persistently interfere with the formation of stable tumble flow from cycle to cycle.

A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible. "


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Offline RedRobin

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2009, 05:36:25 pm »

Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.


Pinched this from a post made by Bacillus

VW are fully aware of this issue!


....OK but I wasn't aware, hence why I posted it as a question.

Thanks for posting the VAG direct quotation  :happy2:


Below is a direct quotation from the technical staff of VAG with complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.

"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of ...........[etc etc etc]...........

A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible."


....I've heard such things before about emission controls and fuel consumption - They're unfortunately imo such heavy marketing influences.




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Offline ukdub

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2009, 05:38:56 pm »
Sorry RR it wasn't ment like that.  It was more aimed towards T-T,  who sometimes thinks he knows more than he actually does.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 07:13:45 am by ukdub »
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2009, 05:49:07 pm »



Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.


Pinched this from a post made by Bacillus

VW are fully aware of this issue!

Below is a direct quotation from the technical staff of VAG with complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.


"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits on components. Carbon deposits form especially in the neck region of intake valves. A more exact analysis of how these carbon deposits form leads to the following result: Oil and fuel constituents first form a sticky coating on the components. These constituents are chiefly long-chain and branched-chain hydrocarbons, i.e., the low-volatility components of oil and fuel. Aromatic compounds adhere especially well. This sticky base coating serves as a base for the deposition of soot particles. This results in a porous surface, in which oil and fuel particles in turn become embedded. This process is a circular process, by which the coating thickness of the carbon deposits continuously increases. Especially in the area of the intake valves, the deposits originate from blowby gases and from internal and external exhaust gas recirculation, and in this process, the blowby gasses and the recirculated exhaust gas come into direct contact with the intake valve.

Especially in the area of the neck of the intake valves, excessive carbon deposits have extremely negative effects for the following reasons: In the case of Otto direct injectors, the successful ignition of the stratified charge depends to a great extent on the correct development of the internal cylinder flow, which ensures reliable transport of the injected fuel to the spark plug to guarantee reliable ignition at the spark plug. However, a coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may interfere so strongly with the tumble flow that ignition failures may occur there as a result. Under certain circumstances, however, ignition failures can lead to irreversible damage of a catalytic converter installed in the exhaust gas tract for purifying the exhaust gas. Furthermore, the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve causes flow resistance, which can lead to significant performance losses due to insufficient cylinder filling, especially in the upper load and speed range of the internal combustion engine. In addition, the carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve may prevent correct valve closing, which leads to compression losses and thus sporadic ignition failures. This in turn could irreversibly damage the catalytic converter. There is the potential for small particles to break away from the coating of carbon deposits in the neck region of the intake valve and get into the catalytic converter. These hot particles may then cause secondary reaction and corresponding local damage of the catalytic converter. For example, a hole may be burned in the structure of the catalytic converter.

Globular deposits are found especially on the valve stem downstream from a partition plate in the intake port. Due to the dripping of high-boiling hydrocarbons from the partition plate towards the valve neck or valve stem, globular carbon deposits eventually form there by the sequence of events explained above. These deposits on the valve stem can result in flow deficits due to undesired swirling and turbulent flow around the globular carbon deposits. This may persistently interfere with the formation of stable tumble flow from cycle to cycle.

A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible. "

Where did this info come from?
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2009, 05:50:56 pm »
Sorry RR it wasn't ment like that.  It was more aimed towards T-T,  who sometimes thinks he know more than he actually does.

Yawn . . .

No need for personal atacks.  If you disagree with something I say, then fine, but posts like that are just a tad immature!  :indifferent:
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2009, 05:56:07 pm »

Sorry RR it wasn't ment like that.


....No problem, mate - The "!" made it ambiguous. Besides, I'm always either misinterpreting or being misinterpreted - Very easy on forums.

:happy2:



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« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 06:02:52 pm by RedRobin »


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Offline RedRobin

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2009, 06:07:36 pm »
....

Something else I've noticed is that the American GTI's don't have the 'charcoal'(?) box which we do.

Would someone care to educate me and possibly others what that box in front of the screenwash filler is, please : -


Yankie GTIs should have that!

Anyway, that is the carbon canister.  It basically stores excess 'vapour' from the fuel tank, and then when the engine is running under a certain operating condition (usually a high vacuum - but FSI engines don't usually create a high vacuum, so VW must have a different way) - the 'contents' of the canister get directed into the inlet manifold, and combusted in the engine.


....Here's a typical yankee engine bay pic showing no charcoal box visible but it does show a BSH Race Catchcan : -



EDIT:

Just found this post across the pond but from an Aussie : -

"Just wondering, can this fit into Euro/Aus Spec car? as our car in Aus all comes with the enviroment black thingys box behind the headlight ( where the catch can is )

Or do we have to relocate the can?"


« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 06:20:51 pm by RedRobin »


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Offline ukdub

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2009, 06:08:38 pm »
Sorry RR it wasn't ment like that.  It was more aimed towards T-T,  who sometimes thinks he know more than he actually does.

Yawn . . .

No need for personal atacks.  If you disagree with something I say, then fine, but posts like that are just a tad immature!  :indifferent:

It wasn't an attack on you as a person,  but you have got to remember that with your knowledge, people take what you say as being the truth, even if you are wrong.  
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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2009, 06:23:30 pm »
I dont think he is wrong, but i think if your engine is in high state of tune, then perhaps the can is worth investing in.Though perhaps abit extreme for little evidence of it being a major problem with people losing performance due to high carbon deposits in the induction system.

Apon finding out about this stuff from Wurth, im gonna hedge my bets for a couple of quid firstly if i have performance problems.

My car has been standard so, alot different for some other peoples cars.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 06:26:00 pm by Phil Mcavity »

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2009, 12:36:35 pm »

Afterall, wouldn't VW have been aware of a direct injection system clog up in the longer term.


Pinched this from a post made by Bacillus

VW are fully aware of this issue!


....OK but I wasn't aware, hence why I posted it as a question.

Thanks for posting the VAG direct quotation  :happy2:


Below is a direct quotation from the technical staff of VAG with complete acknowledgment of the FSI intake valve deposit issue, and it's impacts, including: decreased performance, misfires, catalytic converter damage ... etc.

"Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber, i.e., not into the intake port, suffer especially from the problem of ...........[etc etc etc]...........

A possible solution would be to keep these sources of deposits away, for example, from the intake valve, by completely eliminating exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port. However with the combustion behavior of modern reciprocating internal combustion engines, at least external exhaust gas recirculation and the introduction of blowby gases into the intake port are absolutely necessary for reasons of emission control and fuel consumption, so that this approach is not possible."


That above quote - if it IS official - is very worrying.  No FSI engine uses exhaust gas recirculation!  :scared:

....I've heard such things before about emission controls and fuel consumption - They're unfortunately imo such heavy marketing influences.

I agree with you on all this 'emissions control' stuff - but sadly, it is simply down to regulations from much higher than VW, and I don't really think it is anything to do with marketing.  OK, if VWs engines are more 'envirionmentally friendly' compared to their competators, then by all means, sing about it.  But for I bet 99% of 'performance car' owners/drivers, a cars emissions credentials are going to fall in the 'minus section' of important attributes.
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Offline danishmkvgti

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2009, 02:36:39 pm »

If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this will NOT be an issue!  :stupid:

I don't quite agree with you on that, my car was stock until 160.000km, using stock air filter and castrol longlife oil, and it still had built up on it. Besides there's a fact noone has mentioned. VW made the valve seals so they would let a small amount of oil past them and down the valve stems to compensate for the lack of fuel to lubricate the valve seals.


And that is the crucial point.  A very heaviliy modified engine is going to perform way beyond its normal operating boundaries.  And I've no doubt that Jonnys engine is running increadibly rich too.


I can't follow you on the running rich thing, since the fuel isn't at all in contact with the valve stems, then the rich or lean situation has nothing to do with build up, or am i missing something??  :smiley:

And if i have copied/pasted wrong please excuse me, i just wanted to highlight these two inconsistancies.  :happy2:

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