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Author Topic: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions  (Read 85000 times)

Offline KRL

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2010, 11:11:44 am »
An excellent article on the benefits of running a catch canfrom redline-motorworks.

How does an oil catch can work and why is it beneficial?
Last Updated: 7/28/2010
There is a large debate as to whether or not oil catch cans are worth the money or not. This article is dedicated to providing a very detailed explanation showing why a catch can is highly recommended in direct injection engine applications.

First, let's go over what is currently happening in your engine without a catch can installed. All internal combustion engines that run off gasoline are 4 stroke engines. This means that the piston has to go up and down a total of 4 times to complete a cycle. The piston first goes down with the intake valves open creating a vacuum. This draws in the cool dense air for combustion. At the same time, fuel is injected into the cylinder. The intake valves close and then the piston rises up towards the top of the cylinder. This compression creates an immense build-up of pressure in the cylinder. The only things containing this high pressure are the cylinder itself, the piston and the piston rings that seat against the walls of the cylinder. The intake and exhaust valves are obviously closed as well. The pressure is so high that a very small amount of the air escapes around the piston and piston rings into the crankcase. This is called blow-by. The amount of blow-by increases as the engine RPMs rise. Also, an engine with more cylinders will have more blow-by. Obviously not all of the air escapes or else combustion wouldn't take place. A diagram of the 4-stroke cycle can be seen below. Only the first 2 steps are relevant in regards to the catch can.



Inside the crankcase, you have the crank which is turning in the oil pan which is full of oil. This keeps it properly lubricated. PCV or positive crankcase ventilation is necessary to ensure there isn't a build up of pressure in the crankcase. This would cause the crankcase to possibly crack under the pressure and create a huge mess of oil on the street. So the PCV system removes the pressure from the crankcase and reverts it back through the intake tract via crank case vents. This pressure isn't made up of 100% air. It will also contain a very small amount of oil as well since there is so much in the oil pan at a high temperature. This air and oil mixture is then entered somewhere after the intake system, passes through the intercooler (if you car is turbo or supercharged) and then re-enters the combustion chamber (cylinder) through your intake valves to be re-burned. The oil will actually coat everything on its way back to the combustion chamber. It will develop in the intercooler, boost hoses, intake manifold and intake valves. Just on the other side of these valves is where the combustion is taking place where the temperatures are extremely high. This is what actually causes the oil to solidify on the valves. With the oil passing through the intercooler, it can actually coat the cooling fins which will hinder the intercooler's ability to cool the air therefore lowering the efficiency.

The caking on intake valves is only a problem with direct injection engines. For all other engines that use port injection, the gas is introduced before the combustion chamber which means it flows over the intake valves and enter the combustion chamber premixed with the air. This action of the fuel flowing over the intake valves actually cleans the valves from any oil that make already be on there. The oil never has the chance to cake on the valves in port injection engines.

Having oil caked onto your intake valves can cause the following symptoms:
Knocking
Pre-detonation
Loss in power
Loss in fuel economy
Here is an image of carbon build-up on valves. Yes, it's nasty. :)



This is mainly due to the fact that the air that comes through your intake system and goes into the combustion chamber won't just be air. It will contain some oil particles which cause the combustion process to be slightly less efficient.

You might ask why do car manufacturers revert this crankcase pressure back into the intake tract? Well, for starters there isn't anywhere safe to revert it to and you can't expel it into the atmosphere because it's not environmentally friendly and is considered to not be street legal.

Another question that arises is why isn't a catch can included from the factory? Well it's pretty simple actually. Most people don't even change their oil (scary but true) so will they think to empty the catch can regularly? The answer is obviously and unfortunately, no.

An oil catch can does just that. It catches or prevents the oil from re-entering the intake tract. A catch can is placed right after the PCV and before the intercooler. This means that a more pure (sometimes 100% pure) air mixture will go through the intercooler and intake valves. A more pure air mixture entering the intake valves means no caking and none of the symptoms listed above.

An oil catch can typically uses steel wool or a baffle system that removes the oil from the air-oil mixture. Higher quality cans use the baffle systems since it is less messy and better at separating the mixture. The oil falls to the bottom of the can where it is stored until the can is emptied.

An oil catch can doesn't add any power or make any cool noises so it is often overlooked when modifying vehicles. However, a catch can will ensure you are always running the most power possible by having a cleaner intake tract free of oil.

Offline Poppa Dom

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2010, 11:15:55 am »
^^^ Great post KRL, thanks for putting it up  :happy2:

Offline john_o

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2010, 01:17:23 pm »
^^^ Great post KRL, thanks for putting it up  :happy2:
x2 :happy2:
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2010, 02:28:22 pm »
^^^^
x 3

Excellent info, KRL  :drinking:

I suppose that when fitting an aftermarket catch can system to a car which has done enough miles to coat the valves, the damage is already done  :sad1:. Or is it like the lungs of someone who gives up smoking and the lungs slowly and gradually clear?

I'm disgusted to read the car manufacturer's attitude of not bothering because the average stupid motorist doesn't bother. These are the same people who never maintain correct tyre pressures. The enviro regulations don't help either.


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Offline KRL

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2010, 04:20:49 pm »
AFAIK once a valve has carbon build up on the it will not get removed over time even when running a catch can.  What the catch can will do is prevent the valves from getting even worse.

Lots of guys in the US are taking off their intake manifold and hand cleaning their intake valves.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 05:20:18 pm by KRL »

Offline RedRobin

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2010, 04:29:40 pm »

Lots of guys in the US are taking off their intake manifold and hand cleaning their intake valves.


....I'd have to pay someone to do that for me. Is it a long job do you know?


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Offline KRL

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2010, 05:13:40 pm »
I think it would be a good few hours work.  As we use better quality oils here I would hope that the build up is not as severe.

Offline RedRobin

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2010, 05:27:01 pm »
^^^^
Yep, as I feared.. Rather expensive. No drop in performance, so hopefully all is well inspite of some inevitable valve muck.


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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2010, 06:17:37 pm »
Yes good info  :smiley:, but still wont change my opinion on one of these cans, for us in this country, with better oils and fuels that we use.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 06:19:25 pm by Saint Steve »

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2010, 07:44:35 pm »

If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this will NOT be an issue!  :stupid:

I don't quite agree with you on that, my car was stock until 160.000km, using stock air filter and castrol longlife oil, and it still had built up on it. Besides there's a fact noone has mentioned. VW made the valve seals so they would let a small amount of oil past them and down the valve stems to compensate for the lack of fuel to lubricate the valve seals.


And that is the crucial point.  A very heaviliy modified engine is going to perform way beyond its normal operating boundaries.  And I've no doubt that Jonnys engine is running increadibly rich too.


I can't follow you on the running rich thing, since the fuel isn't at all in contact with the valve stems, then the rich or lean situation has nothing to do with build up, or am i missing something??  :smiley:

And if i have copied/pasted wrong please excuse me, i just wanted to highlight these two inconsistancies.  :happy2:

Purple 1 answer  :evilgrin: - OK, maybe I should re-phrase my earlier comment - If you only use a quality 504.00 from a European oil company, and retain the original OEM paper air filter - then this should NOT be an issue!  OK, sure, there will always be exceptions - but I stand by my comments.  In the UK and Western Europe, we have considerably higher quality unleaded fuels than North America - we have had ULSP, or 'ultra low sulfur petrol' for at least 15 years now, whereas over the pond, their fuels contain considerably higher quantities of sulfur - and it is the sulfur, when burned at high temperatures in a combustion chamber, which produce hard deposits.  Secondly, we (UK and W.Europe) generally stick to the recommended oils (yes, there are exceptions, and annoyingly so, most of these deviations are from actual main stealers!  :fighting:) - which means fully synthetic 504.00 oils.  Now, over the pond, they will only use 502.00 oils - and MINERAL oils can be 502.00 rated.

Onto valve stem oil seals - ALL valve stem oil seals will leak oil - if they don't leak tiny amounts of oil, then the engine isn't running.  VWs valve stem oil seals on FSI engines are not any difference (engineering wise) to their earlier non-FSI motors.

And now your own specific car - at 160k kilometers (which is nigh-on 100,000 miles) - ALL engines will have deposits on the back faces of the valves - FSI or non-FSI.  This issue really is being made Mount Everest out of a mole hill.  There are tens of thousands, nay, probably hundreds of thousands of Volkswagen Group FSI engines happily running, yes, probably with minor valve build up (but certainly not adversely worse than non FSI engines) - without ANY PROBLEMS.  The same direct injection technology has been used years before in Mitsubishi GDI engines, it is now also being used in Porsches, Ferraris, BMWs, Toyotas, Fords . . . . the list of direct injection petrol engines will snowball manifold injection - and we will NOT see any kind of epidemic of doom which is being portrayed by mainly the yanks, and specifically by the likes of BSH!

Purple 2 answer - rich running - blow by - get it??????  Highly tuned cars which generally do run rich (to keep combustion temps lower) will inevitably suffer more blow-by into the crankcase.  This blow-by will contain neat unburnt fuel, and also, carbon-rich partially combusted crud.  Two issues, the unburnt fuel will make the engine oil more 'dilute' and also more 'volatile' (meaning the oil will evaporate to a vapour far more easily), and the carbon particles will 'contaminate' the oil much quicker.  OK, the oil filter will take out the larger particles of crap, but the smaller ones will remain in suspension in the oil.  Now, when all this black soup of oil and carbon gets vaporised and atomised during normal engine operation, and naturaly circulates through the engine breather system, the extra carbon black, and the effect of increased volatility will only make any oil getting onto the back of the valves much worse.  Which is why I ONLY recommend the NEED for a catch can on heavily modified engines.

Have I clarified my thoughts?
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2010, 07:49:04 pm »
An excellent article on the benefits of running a catch canfrom redline-motorworks.

How does an oil catch can work and why is it beneficial?
Last Updated: 7/28/2010
There is a large debate as to whether or not oil catch cans are worth the money or not. This article is dedicated to providing a very detailed explanation showing why a catch can is highly recommended in direct injection engine applications.

First, let's go over what is currently happening in your engine without a catch can installed. All internal combustion engines that run off gasoline are 4 stroke engines. This means that the piston has to go up and down a total of 4 times to complete a cycle. The piston first goes down with the intake valves open creating a vacuum. This draws in the cool dense air for combustion. At the same time, fuel is injected into the cylinder. The intake valves close and then the piston rises up towards the top of the cylinder. This compression creates an immense build-up of pressure in the cylinder. The only things containing this high pressure are the cylinder itself, the piston and the piston rings that seat against the walls of the cylinder. The intake and exhaust valves are obviously closed as well. The pressure is so high that a very small amount of the air escapes around the piston and piston rings into the crankcase. This is called blow-by. The amount of blow-by increases as the engine RPMs rise. Also, an engine with more cylinders will have more blow-by. Obviously not all of the air escapes or else combustion wouldn't take place. A diagram of the 4-stroke cycle can be seen below. Only the first 2 steps are relevant in regards to the catch can.



Inside the crankcase, you have the crank which is turning in the oil pan which is full of oil. This keeps it properly lubricated. PCV or positive crankcase ventilation is necessary to ensure there isn't a build up of pressure in the crankcase. This would cause the crankcase to possibly crack under the pressure and create a huge mess of oil on the street. So the PCV system removes the pressure from the crankcase and reverts it back through the intake tract via crank case vents. This pressure isn't made up of 100% air. It will also contain a very small amount of oil as well since there is so much in the oil pan at a high temperature. This air and oil mixture is then entered somewhere after the intake system, passes through the intercooler (if you car is turbo or supercharged) and then re-enters the combustion chamber (cylinder) through your intake valves to be re-burned. The oil will actually coat everything on its way back to the combustion chamber. It will develop in the intercooler, boost hoses, intake manifold and intake valves. Just on the other side of these valves is where the combustion is taking place where the temperatures are extremely high. This is what actually causes the oil to solidify on the valves. With the oil passing through the intercooler, it can actually coat the cooling fins which will hinder the intercooler's ability to cool the air therefore lowering the efficiency.

The caking on intake valves is only a problem with direct injection engines. For all other engines that use port injection, the gas is introduced before the combustion chamber which means it flows over the intake valves and enter the combustion chamber premixed with the air. This action of the fuel flowing over the intake valves actually cleans the valves from any oil that make already be on there. The oil never has the chance to cake on the valves in port injection engines.

Having oil caked onto your intake valves can cause the following symptoms:
Knocking
Pre-detonation
Loss in power
Loss in fuel economy
Here is an image of carbon build-up on valves. Yes, it's nasty. :)



This is mainly due to the fact that the air that comes through your intake system and goes into the combustion chamber won't just be air. It will contain some oil particles which cause the combustion process to be slightly less efficient.

You might ask why do car manufacturers revert this crankcase pressure back into the intake tract? Well, for starters there isn't anywhere safe to revert it to and you can't expel it into the atmosphere because it's not environmentally friendly and is considered to not be street legal.

Another question that arises is why isn't a catch can included from the factory? Well it's pretty simple actually. Most people don't even change their oil (scary but true) so will they think to empty the catch can regularly? The answer is obviously and unfortunately, no.

An oil catch can does just that. It catches or prevents the oil from re-entering the intake tract. A catch can is placed right after the PCV and before the intercooler. This means that a more pure (sometimes 100% pure) air mixture will go through the intercooler and intake valves. A more pure air mixture entering the intake valves means no caking and none of the symptoms listed above.

An oil catch can typically uses steel wool or a baffle system that removes the oil from the air-oil mixture. Higher quality cans use the baffle systems since it is less messy and better at separating the mixture. The oil falls to the bottom of the can where it is stored until the can is emptied.

An oil catch can doesn't add any power or make any cool noises so it is often overlooked when modifying vehicles. However, a catch can will ensure you are always running the most power possible by having a cleaner intake tract free of oil.

I qould quite literally rip that article to shreds.  There is so much blatantly factual bullsh!t - virtually EVERY sentance or comment has either a fundamental error, or a systematic twist of proven automotive engineering fact.  I just CBA to go through it line by line - but here is a starter - have they never heard of a TWO-STROKE petrol engine?????
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
------
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2010, 08:04:05 pm »
I'm disgusted to read the car manufacturer's attitude of not bothering
Why?  For 99% of FSI engines - this is NOT a problem.  And do you think there is any possibility of collusion between all the other 'direct injection' engine manufactures to brush this under the carpet?


because the average stupid motorist doesn't bother. These are the same people who never maintain correct tyre pressures.
That is a completely different kettle of haddock.  Horse to water and all that . . . .


The enviro regulations don't help either.
ORLY - take it you don't know any motorcyclists who have come a cropper on spilt oil.  FFS, diesel on the road surface is bad enough - we don't want knuts purposely spewing oil onto the road surface too.  I am more than happy about this particlular regulation for closed loop crankcase ventilation.

That is
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
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Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2010, 08:06:31 pm »
AFAIK once a valve has carbon build up on the it will not get removed over time even when running a catch can.  What the catch can will do is prevent the valves from getting even worse.

Lots of guys in the US are taking off their intake manifold and hand cleaning their intake valves.
Dooohhhhhh - in the US, they have shyte fuel and use cheap shyte oils.  What goes on in the US has NO relevence to what happens here in the UK or Europe (unless you have a secret stash of cheap Russian fuel . . . )
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
------
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~~ free official Golf V factory workshop manuals ~~

Offline Teutonic_Tamer

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2010, 08:09:15 pm »
^^^^
Yep, as I feared.. Rather expensive. No drop in performance, so hopefully all is well inspite of some inevitable valve muck.
Just get some decent fuel additive - Wurth stuff was discussed a long while back, and now even VW have an OEM fuel additive.  Run a high dose say once every three or six months.  Don't use it continously though, as it can potentially dilute your oil.
Sean - Independant Automotive Engineering Technician (ret'd)
------
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: 2.0 TFSI : PCV / Intake valve clogging : what/why/common solutions
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2010, 10:44:00 pm »

The enviro regulations don't help either.


ORLY - take it you don't know any motorcyclists who have come a cropper on spilt oil.  FFS, diesel on the road surface is bad enough - we don't want knuts purposely spewing oil onto the road surface too.  I am more than happy about this particlular regulation for closed loop crankcase ventilation.


....Slight misunderstand there, Sean: I'm against those systems which spew the oily residue on the road surface and for the closed cans which need manually emptying.  :happy2:


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